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Alan Cox: Fedora 18 "The Worst Red Hat Distro," Switches To Ubuntu

samzenpus posted about 2 years ago | from the no-sir-I-don't-like-it dept.

Red Hat Software 380

An anonymous reader writes "Linux kernel developer veteran Alan Cox has lashed out at Red Hat's recent release of Fedora 18. Cox posted comments to his Google+ page saying 'Fedora 18 seems to be the worst Red Hat distro I've ever seen.' He encountered numerous problems with Fedora 18 and then decided to switch to Ubuntu."

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and said gnome3 sucks on ubuntu... (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42675429)

and said gnome3 sucks on ubuntu...

Re:and said gnome3 sucks on ubuntu... (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42675463)

I say that he sucks on dicks...

Re:and said gnome3 sucks on ubuntu... (0, Flamebait)

Tog Klim (909717) | about 2 years ago | (#42675525)

And could have generalized that to Gnome3 anywhere...

This will be followed by a new headline tomorrow (-1, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42675459)

Alan Cox: Ubuntu "Most useless and senseless desktop ever," Switches to Gentoo

forgot RH7 (4, Interesting)

dltaylor (7510) | about 2 years ago | (#42675461)

THAT POS came with the bastardized !GCC 2.96, totally butchered by RH.

Ugly, ugly incompatibilities abounded. Even "build from source" didn't work very well, since the compiler was not really "C", or any other language.

Re:forgot RH7 (1, Insightful)

ruir (2709173) | about 2 years ago | (#42675569)

I concur that. I switched to Debian after the fiasco of RH7 and never looked back.

Re: forgot RH7 (3, Interesting)

xose (219487) | about 2 years ago | (#42675585)

Maybe you are wrong: http://www.redhat.com/advice/speaks_gcc.html [redhat.com]

Re: forgot RH7 (4, Informative)

fluffy99 (870997) | about 2 years ago | (#42675919)

Maybe you are wrong: http://www.redhat.com/advice/speaks_gcc.html [redhat.com]

He's right about ugly incompatibilities. Old code which complied fine and compiled on other platforms didn't work on RH7. That the underlying reason was non-standards compliant programming and a much stricter compiler didn't change the problem. It also didn't help that the compiler was enforcing c++ standards against c code.

Re: forgot RH7 (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42676027)

Newp, it was so bad I still have the scars. I remember clearly taking a clean RH7 install. Installed the kernel sources from rpm and gcc.. and it would not compile with the settings from the running kernel. The compiler was broken. Whatever they used to make the distribution wasn't actually provided with it.

Re:forgot RH7 (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42676001)

That takes me back. I remember it not being really better until RH9.

Re:forgot RH7 (4, Insightful)

smash (1351) | about 2 years ago | (#42676211)

Clearly you weren't around for Redhat 5.0, with the libc5->glibc fuckup.

Re:forgot RH7 (1)

sourcerror (1718066) | about 2 years ago | (#42676399)

Fedora Core 4 also had a fucked up compiler. You couldn't compile a kernel with it.

Come on, Alan ;( (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42675469)

They can't all be the worst!

Re:Come on, Alan ;( (5, Funny)

lennier (44736) | about 2 years ago | (#42675809)

They can't all be the worst!

You might very well think that, but then you encounter the non-Euclidean badness that is Unity/Gnome3 and all sanity goes out the window.

A million distributions, all simultaneously worse than each other is entirely possible with the way that Linux desktop development is trending at the moment.

Re:Come on, Alan ;( (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42675967)

kinda funny that a guy switches from one crap distro to another

Debian hasn't done this kind of thing and has even shifted to xfce4 as the default desktop.

There can be only one...

People use Red Hat? (2, Insightful)

Blindman (36862) | about 2 years ago | (#42675471)

I guess this is a big deal. I tried Red Hat a long time ago and I have never looked back. I'm just going to stick with Slackware.

Re:People use Red Hat? (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42675583)

The first distro I ever bought was a Red Hat 4.something in a retail box. Tried several others, including Mandrake when it appeared ('cause at the time Red Hat didn't have KDE and I wanted to try it.) Settled on Debian for a number of years, then switched to Ubuntu. Using Ubuntu now, but considering a future switch to Mint.

People use Google+? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42675719)

Surely this is the bigger news?

Re:People use Red Hat? (2)

panthrkub (886691) | about 2 years ago | (#42676237)

"Red Hat became the first one-billion dollar open source company in its fiscal year 2012, reaching $1.13 billion in annual revenue." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Hat [wikipedia.org] Yes, I'd say people use "Red Hat". More specifically they probably use Fedora or Red Hat Enterprise Linux or JBoss, etc.

TEH END OF (-1, Troll)

eyenot (102141) | about 2 years ago | (#42675485)

radh8 lun1x !!!11!!111!111

Darkside (5, Funny)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42675487)

Welcome Alan! We've been waiting for you.

  ONE OF US!! ONE OF US!!

Re:Darkside (2)

SpaceLifeForm (228190) | about 2 years ago | (#42675739)

You can not trust Canonical any more than Redhat.

He will realize Ubuntu has problems, and he will eventually switch to Debian.

Give him a few weeks.

Re:Darkside (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42675771)

Uh... right. Because he's totally unaware when it comes to various linux distros and is randomly trying them for the first time until his personal opinion coincides with slashdot trolls.

Re:Darkside (1)

Sponge Bath (413667) | about 2 years ago | (#42676523)

The OP may be talking about ascension to grumpy old man status. He joins others like Senator McCain and John Stewart in raising his cane to the sky in defiance.

Go Arch (4, Informative)

sphantom (795286) | about 2 years ago | (#42675489)

After making the switch from Ubuntu to Fedora after the Unity fiasco, I recently switched from F17 to Arch due to all the delays. I couldn't be happier.

Re:Go Arch (2)

pwizard2 (920421) | about 2 years ago | (#42675577)

If you want Ubuntu without all the bullshit just use Linux Mint.

Re:Go Arch (1)

dmbasso (1052166) | about 2 years ago | (#42675657)

If you want Ubuntu without all the bullshit just use Debian.

FTFY.

U = D + BS_U
LM = U - BS_U/2 + BS_LM

Re:Go Arch (5, Funny)

quenda (644621) | about 2 years ago | (#42676245)

I don't know - pure Debian tends to be a bit conservative and lagging. Have they made the switch to ELF yet?

Re:Go Arch (4, Funny)

rrohbeck (944847) | about 2 years ago | (#42676353)

I guess you haven't tried Debian experimental.

Re:Go Arch (3, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42675713)

bullshit like ... support? That's fine if you are a home hobby user, but not in a corporate env. We need someone to blame.
Redhat provides that.
Ubuntu provides that.

Arch, mint, debian do not - except from 3rd parties. I'm not claiming that 3rd party support is not really better, just that explaining that to management is a loosing effort.

Re:Go Arch (3, Interesting)

sphantom (795286) | about 2 years ago | (#42675825)

I actually find pacman to be a little better than apt/aptitude. Additionally, dealing with packages not in the standard repos tends to be a better experience in Arch.

On the flip side of the coin though, Arch feels a bit like Gentoo at times in that some tasks can require a bit of manual intervention.

Plusses and minuses to both I suppose.

Re:Go Arch (1)

Nimey (114278) | about 2 years ago | (#42676255)

A bit? I played with Arch for about six months and gave up the second time I ran into an update that broke the system because I didn't read the homepage first.

I'll stick with Ubuntu Server if I want a fully customized barebones install. That sucks too, but not quite so strongly and I won't have to do a reinstall every time the devs want to randomly make incompatible changes.

Re:Go Arch (0)

Giant Electronic Bra (1229876) | about 2 years ago | (#42675595)

Yeah, I used Mandriva for years mainly for the fact that it had by far the best repos around. Since that has gone into implosion mode F17 has been a good fallback. Of course I have no desire to touch Gnome anything with a 10' model M keyboard...

Re:Go Arch (1)

armanox (826486) | about 2 years ago | (#42675993)

Where can I find a 10' Model M keyboard?

Re:Go Arch (1)

sconeu (64226) | about 2 years ago | (#42676445)

Try Mageia. It has all the Mandriva goodness and none of the suckitude.

Re:Go Arch (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42675611)

Glad it's working out for you. Meanwhile, I'm ditching Arch linux due to them ditching BSD inits in favor of the bogosity that is systemd.

Re:Go Arch (3, Insightful)

sphantom (795286) | about 2 years ago | (#42675781)

I'll admit that systemd has a learning curve as some commands don't have equivalents, but after a couple of days of having to google for the right commands, I don't think its as bad as its made out to be (most likely by those who aren't willing to atleast try to use it for an extended period of time).

IMHO, it seems to be a "simple but limited" vs "complex and powerful" argument. I also find switching distros solely because of the init system to be a little much. Do yourself a favor and at least attempt to learn the regularly used systemd commands with an open mind. You may find its not nearly as bad as you think.

Re:Go Arch (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42676055)

I know more than I care to about systemd thanks, I was merely shouting down your zealotry.

You'll simply not convince me to eat shit because I may learn to tolerate it. Arch linux and the unix philosophy parted ways and I'll be parting with this particular linux distribution as soon as possible. If the arch maintainers wont allow even allow discussion of the issues, there's nothing else for me (or anyone else) to say on the matter other than "goodbye".

Re:Go Arch (1)

sphantom (795286) | about 2 years ago | (#42676125)

To each his own, AC. Obviously you're passionate and hard minded about it, otherwise you wouldn't have referred to me as a zealot after I mentioned I've switched distros 3 times in the past 2 years (and hence package managers and init systems). Thanks for playing though.

Re:Go Arch (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42676303)

No problem, it was my pleasure. Arch was a great distro and served me well, I only called your comment "zealotry" because you're being vocal in championing it whilst a number long-time users like myself are looking to move on (or back from whence we came).

Uh? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42675493)

When did /. become a social media feed? If I wanted that, twitter is far more accessible.

Left RH a decade ago (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42675497)

After being in RPM hell for about a year, I left redhat for debian about a decade ago.
Every once in a while, I get a wild hard up my ass and try a different RPM-based distro for a few months, but find myself going back to APT.

I've been relatively happy running Ubuntu servers since 2008 - provided I stay on LTS releases. Ubuntu desktops were fine, before that Unity crap. That pushed me back to fvwm2 --- which still completely rocks!

Ubuntu, really? (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42675501)

Wtf, Linux veterans are now using Ubuntu? Go get Arch.

Re:Ubuntu, really? (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42675691)

These people have lives.

Re:Ubuntu, really? (4, Funny)

Trilkin (2042026) | about 2 years ago | (#42675925)

If you weren't anon, I'd mod this comment up so hard you'd get an orgasm that could be felt from across the world.

Re:Ubuntu, really? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42676379)

Yeah, the headline would make about as much sense as

Ralph Nader: Chevy Corvair "The Worst Car Ever," Switches To Ford Pinto

Was this sourced from The Onion?

Re:Ubuntu, really? (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42676503)

Alan Cox doesn't have to pretend to be 1337 so there's no point in him using Arch.

Recent Linux updates... (3, Insightful)

Darkness404 (1287218) | about 2 years ago | (#42675523)

Recent Linux distros have made me miss the days of Ubuntu 7.10 and the like, back when hardware compatibility finally caught up to Windows (wireless cards actually worked out of the box! No more messing with windows drivers in hopes you could get them to sort of work with the kernel!) and they hadn't completely broken the UI (like Gnome 3.x).

It seems like whenever I wipe and re-upgrade a distro I end up having to take weeks to make it work the way I want it to. Although, I have to say I like it better than Windows 8...

Re:Recent Linux updates... (1)

pwizard2 (920421) | about 2 years ago | (#42675643)

IIRC, Broadcom wireless support was still a bit dodgy on Ubuntu back in the 7.10 days. There was no easy-fix install from the repos, you had to manually rip the firmware from the Windows drivers yourself with bcm43xx-fwcutter and hope it would work after the next reboot.

Re:Recent Linux updates... (1)

Darkness404 (1287218) | about 2 years ago | (#42675701)

Yeah, although I was lucky and never had any Broadcom chips. I forget which brand it was that I had, but it constantly gave me trouble until 7.04 or 7.10 when it started working out of the box.

Re:Recent Linux updates... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42676023)

you probably had ralink or atheros....with the latter being better, the former worked ootb in ubuntu 7.10

Re:Recent Linux updates... (1)

PRMan (959735) | about 2 years ago | (#42675751)

I hope Windows doesn't end up that way with everyone always looking back wistfully on Windows 7, but I get this feeling it's gonna end up that way...

Re:Recent Linux updates... (1)

sjames (1099) | about 2 years ago | (#42675801)

Given all the talk about up/downgrading Windows 8 ->7, I'd say we're there.

Re:Recent Linux updates... (2)

Darkness404 (1287218) | about 2 years ago | (#42676277)

Its already happened. Indeed I have a feeling that XP is going to be the platform that people will get nostalgic about 10-15 years later.

Re:Recent Linux updates... (0)

atomican (2799855) | about 2 years ago | (#42676377)

Yup. Like I said in the previous story about Fedora 18, the state of Linux these days is appalling and I find no reason to suggest it to a happy Windows 7/OS X user at all. Windows 8 user, maybe, but I'd rather learn and teach said user the new way to do things in Windows 8 rather than switch to a completely different platform with its own quirks.

Re:Recent Linux updates... (2)

Darkness404 (1287218) | about 2 years ago | (#42676517)

Yeah, I switched to Linux full time (except on my work laptop which runs Windows 7) when Vista was released simply because Vista was awful. In fact I convinced quite a few others to try Linux because of the problems with Vista, anymore though I'd just tell them to stick with Windows because of all the annoying quirks a modern distribution of Linux has. For example a recent Ubuntu install I had to do everything from enabling basic shortcuts (such as ctrl+alt+backspace) to just silly tweaks like editing configuration files to switch the buttons from the left hand side to the right hand side (before giving up with Unity/Gnome 3.x and installing cinnamon), not to mention loads of other stuff...

big friggin deal (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42675537)

Last week I was looking to upgrade from fedora 17, so I tried Ubuntu 12.10 because it is supposed to work better with steam. What a heaping pile of shit that was. I lasted about 2 hours before I downloaded fedora 18 and installed it over Ubuntu. I haven't had a problem since. The snapshot plugin for yum that works with BTRFS is awesome, steam works great once you install the proprietary nvidia driver (or your equivalent,) and I haven't had any problems since.

And since when is "What distro a kernel developer uses" a big deal? Linus's opinion may be worth a little, but I can't see any reason why Cox's should have any impact on anything. If you don't like Fedora, use something else. I happen to think it's one of the best releases fedora has done.

Alan Cox rants on G+! Film at 11! (5, Insightful)

neiras (723124) | about 2 years ago | (#42675541)

Why is this news? Slashdot already covered F18's wacky installer.

F18 is a bleeding-edge testing distribution. People who use bleeding-edge testing distributions should expect the odd glitch. New things get tried in Fedora. Some of them are great; some of them are dubious. It's always been this way. This is surely not news.

We're using F18 here on all our desktop machines; there have been zero issues. The installer was a "WTF? Oh, got it." inconvenience the first time around.

Thanks for the kernels, AC, and you can say what you like, but people whose OS installs get screwed up tend to be louder than those for whom things just work. I wonder if he even bothered to report a bug. Probably not.

Re:Alan Cox rants on G+! Film at 11! (1)

ufpdom (556704) | about 2 years ago | (#42675805)

agreed.. its super bleeding edge.. u get new stuff but at a cost. Granted i Havent use FC in awhile.

+1 to your comment

Re:Alan Cox rants on G+! Film at 11! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42675807)

I installed two separate systems (both 64-bit) - one when just fine and works great, the other failed because the entire partition was encrypted and, apparently, Anaconda doesn't deal with that well. I don't understand all the complaining - there have been many Fedora releases far worse than this (including one that required an Anaconda fix to be available on a floppy before it would work!). Fedora has never been about Newbies, but Alan Cox? Really, Alan - you couldn't Google the error and find that cryptsetup was trying to open the same device at two different times during boot so it spits out a harmless message? - and then works just fine...

Re:Alan Cox rants on G+! Film at 11! (1)

blind biker (1066130) | about 2 years ago | (#42675811)

people whose OS installs get screwed up tend to be louder than those for whom things just work.

Apparently not.

Re:Alan Cox rants on G+! Film at 11! (5, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42675813)

>> We're using F18 here on all our desktop machines

Do you use kickstarts to automate deployment?
On top of that, do you
* password-protect GRUB?
* lock out users from accessing a shell on /dev/tty2 during installation?
* expect GDM to show up (or, heck, Xorg to run) after doing an automated install?
* require that updated packages be installed during automated installation?

As of today, all these things are completely broken in F18 and the new installer. If you know workarounds, please reply! We could use your help and I'd send you a nice gift in return. :-)
—DMW

Re:Alan Cox rants on G+! Film at 11! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42676049)

The thing ism 'it's not just a bug or two, nearly everything in Fedora 18 is broken. The installer is slow and buggy, the package manager is slow and buggy, installing third-party repositories through the web browser no longer works, trying to shutdown the computer prompts for a password and claims (falsely) other users are logged in, GNOME 3 is amazingly slow, the UI is inconsistent and there is no coordination between the sysadmin tools. Fedora has always been a little bleeding edge, a little buggy here and there, but this release was horrible.

Re:Alan Cox rants on G+! Film at 11! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42676095)

> should expect the odd glitch

There is no glitch. The installer works as intended.

> This is surely not news.

The news is that suddenly we've got all this random bullshit riding up our asses from idiots who "want change". Stuff like this has never really been an issue in the past, but now for some reason it's getting past Q/A and making its way into the shipping product. That's the news. It's like the "random-bullshit-we-don't-need" filter for all the software got thrown out somewhere along the line, and developers started to think that they were all god and that everything they did was obviously correct so if you don't like it, you're just using it wrong.

Before, "Bleeding Edge" used to mean that they were testing an awesome new network manager. But there's a bunch of bugs, and it's forgetting your last connected SSID or displaying gibberish for the SSIDs in the available network list. Where is the problem? The problem lies in the code, and the code can be fixed. Everyone is happy in the end when it works.

Now we've got this new problem where "Bleeding Edge" means "We're going to pull the carpet up out from underneath you, deal with it". Developers are making appallingly bad decisions and expecting the end users to "get used to it". How are you supposed to fix this? The code is working as intended. The developer's brain, however, is not. The only solution to this stuff is to force that developer to deal with the backlash of his decisions (and not all developers want to learn from their mistakes) or outright replace them with someone who knows what they're doing.

Do you see the problem here?

The problem with this newfound "Bleeding Edge" stuff isn't the code, it's the developers. And fixing the developers is infinitely more harder then fixing code.

Re:Alan Cox rants on G+! Film at 11! (1)

hobarrera (2008506) | about 2 years ago | (#42676297)

Arch is bleeding edge, and way more than Fedora. I've never seen broken installers or any important packages broken. Most issues in general, are upstream packages, but nothing as important as the installer.

Re:Alan Cox rants on G+! Film at 11! (4, Interesting)

bill_mcgonigle (4333) | about 2 years ago | (#42676535)

People who use bleeding-edge testing distributions should expect the odd glitch

General rules of thumb (assuming a normal 6-month cycle):

A Fedora release is broken for the first 30 days. Things are rapidly fixed. Yeah, that should be beta, but too few people test. Personally, I can't have my daily work machines broken for beta, but I do install it when I'm on the previous release and developers are working on something that needs fixing that I need fixed, or when I have a spare machine I don't have to rely on.
Months 2-5 are where most of the annoying bugs get fixed. I usually upgrade my daily use machines around month 3.
Months 6-12 are where most people can use the system. I upgrade my wife's machine around month 6. She likes the snazzy new features in Digikam or whatever.
Month 12 is when you start to realize you need stuff that's going in the next version only.
Month 14 is when you realize that you forgot to upgrade to the next release when it was at month 6.

Fedora switches to Ubuntu (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42675587)

"Alan Cox: Fedora 18 'The Worst Red Hat Distro,' Switches To Ubuntu"

Wait, what? Fedora switched to Ubuntu?! That's a pretty radical departure for them, isn't it?

Re:Fedora switches to Ubuntu (2)

madprof (4723) | about 2 years ago | (#42675671)

Desperate times mean desperate measures!

Must be really bad (2)

Punto (100573) | about 2 years ago | (#42675639)

If he's switching to the distro where the UI looks like they tried to copy OSX (and failed), audio is broken, and all your searches are sent to Amanzon (?), then RH must be *really* bad.

Re:Must be really bad (1)

UltraZelda64 (2309504) | about 2 years ago | (#42676061)

Yeah. I just wonder what they'll be doing with the next RHEL since last I heard it was supposed to be based on Fedora 18. From the sounds of things, they'd better either keep parts from Fedora 17 or get scrambling to fix the clusterfuck they've created in Fedora 18, test the hell out of it, and then put that in RHEL instead...

Must have been pretty shocking... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42675641)

Considering how astonishingly poor the desktop experience on Ubuntu is thesedays(amazing little touches like breaking Alt+letter for LOffice's menus), FC18 must be quite the trainwreck, then again, i don't suppose it matters to those who aren't ubuntu's target audience, but then i'm left wondering why you'd choose it over debian.
I miss my years of the linux desktop, they look like they might come to an end soon, if no one gets around to unfucking UI design.

Re:Must have been pretty shocking... (0)

0123456 (636235) | about 2 years ago | (#42675995)

I presume he really means xubuntu, lubuntu or kbuntu, not unitysucksbuntu.

Whatever (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42675705)

Anybody that has ever used Red Hat, Fedora, or any RPM based distro for any length of time is an idiot.

RPM alone destroys any desire whatsoever to use those bastardized ditros.

Re:Whatever (2)

UltraZelda64 (2309504) | about 2 years ago | (#42676103)

I tend to use the package repository most of the time, not install packages directly, so I don't know what your point is. Even with openSUSE I have managed to install certain packages with minimal to no trouble (Opera, Chrome). I think the real problem is the repositories themselves, not the package format.

That said... I do prefer Debian's and even Ubuntu's system, but that is more due to the fact that both of their repositories have nearly everything I can think of. And also the fact that I know the Debian command line tools better, and like the Synaptic GUI.

This is akin to... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42675745)

Dear Slashdot,

Please stop publishing articles from the IT department of TMZ.

xoxo,
AC

Duuuh. (5, Insightful)

lophophore (4087) | about 2 years ago | (#42675773)

Duuuh.

Never, ever, switch to a Fedora release until it has been out for at least 6 weeks.

I consider Fedora to be (at best) beta-test RHEL. I've been using it for years, and I can tell you, it *always* sucks at release. Always. Give it a month or two for the worst bugs to get addressed, then install it.

Despite its warts, I'll take Fedora 18 for $0 over Windows 8 any day.

Re:Duuuh. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42676469)

I waited 'til a week ago. I had problems. I got so fedup I almost went back to f17. But that very day, they came out with a fix and now I'm loving it. So yeah... It takes time. So, to everyone with an axe to grind... Be patient and do your duty by opening bug reports and contribute instead of bitching about it.

Re:Duuuh. (1)

vux984 (928602) | about 2 years ago | (#42676541)

consider Fedora to be (at best) beta-test RHEL. I

That's what Red Hat considers it to be as well from what I've read, except that its not a bad thing, because they were pretty upfront about it when they spun Fedora up in the first place.

A small addendum (Slashdot slapdown) (5, Informative)

Chas (5144) | about 2 years ago | (#42675783)

From his G+ page:

(and Slashdot, moving one PC from Fedora with Ubuntu VM to just Ubuntu isn't 'switching to Ubuntu')

Where is everyone? (4, Insightful)

Sponge Bath (413667) | about 2 years ago | (#42675791)

I understand that Fedora is an experimental platform for bleeding edge changes, but if you take the perpetual beta status too far, nobody will bother to do your testing.

Correction from Alan Cox (4, Informative)

Nimey (114278) | about 2 years ago | (#42675827)

(and Slashdot, moving one PC from Fedora with Ubuntu VM to just Ubuntu isn't 'switching to Ubuntu')

Color me shocked, shocked that a Slashdot story is sensationalized.

I hope redhat is paying attention to this (1)

erroneus (253617) | about 2 years ago | (#42675871)

RedHat drives and influences much of what goes on out there. Among these, it influences GNOME and the audio and all the stuff people are complaining about the most. It's almost as if they are intentionally damaging themselves for some reason.

Fedora is supposed ot be like a test for RHEL. Fedora is NOT a "bleeding edge" distro. If you want that, run "Rawhide." Fedora is supposed to be usable and is essentially a usability study for things that would end up in the next RHEL.

Now, with all the negative feedback on GNOME and all that, I would have to wonder what they are doing if the most despised things about Fedora go into RHEL7. They are pushing these things way too hard and I'm guessing they are hoping for user acceptance and it's just not happening.

I ended up giving up on Fedora and went to CentOS but it has problems not being modern enough... or rather, the problems of the way GNOME is built have revealed themselves where you wouldn't see them if you just kept updating with Fedora. Well anyway, CentOS gives me some of what I wanted, but not all or even enough.

Out of the frying pan then, Alan (1)

drankr (2796221) | about 2 years ago | (#42676035)

And into the fire.

Worst Debian Distro (5, Funny)

seyyah (986027) | about 2 years ago | (#42676039)

So he's switched from the "Worst Red Hat Distro" to the worst Debian distro. Got it.

Giving up so quickly? (1)

panthrkub (886691) | about 2 years ago | (#42676153)

At least when Linus Torvalds bitches about Fedora, he actually contributes rather than pulling a: http://www.quickmeme.com/meme/3sp7o8/ [quickmeme.com]

He what? (3, Insightful)

Lumpy (12016) | about 2 years ago | (#42676157)

IS the man insane?

Just go to Debian and all will be right with his world....

I completely agree... (4, Informative)

RedHackTea (2779623) | about 2 years ago | (#42676177)

In the past, I have been a huge Fedora fanboy. Having had been on Fedora 15 for so long, I finally made the jump to Fedora 18 yesterday! I had no problems with the installer (setting up my custom partition scheme was definitely weird; for example, you have to type "/" to get a drop down of possible mount points, and /opt and /var are seemingly excluded from this drop down for no reason).

But oh my god, this release is a complete piece of SHIT. I'm not going to uninstall it because of how much hassle I went through (and this is my work PC), but damn, just damn. Having said this, they did fix some problems in F15, and it looks nicer, but the number of new problems outweighs the benefits. If you're thinking about upgrading, don't do it.

Some of the problems I had to deal with:
  • Software Installer: It's now called "Software" instead of "Add/Remove Packages" or whatever. I kept typing in "Add" trying to find it. This thing is the worst piece of shit in the whole installation. They decided to completely remove the X button, remove the ability to resize/reposition, and it's auto-fullscreen on the primary monitor. If you search "libreoffice" on 2 monitors, it expands to take up 1 and 1/3 of your monitors with no way for you to resize it. When I first installed Fedora, I selected a whole bunch of packages I wanted to install and clicked apply; didn't work or do a damn thing. I had to close it and go back in and just select and install a few at a time. What baffles the mind is that this worked on F15. Whoever broke this needs to GTFO.
  • System Tray: You know that nice thing in the bottom right of your screen that you think even the dumbest fool couldn't break? They broke it. You have to sit your cursor on the bottom right for about a minute just for it to come up. Rhythmbox/tomboy/clipit/autokey system tray is useless now. And yeah, you know when something crashes and you'll get the "Automatic Bug Report" icon in the system tray? There's no way to f/cking close it.
  • Tracker: This was a problem in F15 as well. Remove this POS! It churns up tons of CPU and eats all of my memory trying to cache my whole system. Fix this or delete it. And, BTW, you can't remove this because everything depends on it. You have to do "gnome-session-properties" and make sure that it doesn't autostart. Because I didn't feel like re-logging in, I then had to kill it through System Monitor. This is garbage.
  • Non-Obvious Application Menu: Yeah, I was in Nautilus file manager for a while trying to figure out how to get to preferences. Instead of a menu now, you have to right click on the app image in the top-left corner (next to Activities and before the Time/Date). This is more of user error, but it'd be nice to let a guy know.
  • Tooltip Background Color: If you use Eclipse at all, you'll notice that your background color is black when hovering over an item and seeing the Javadoc (text is black/dark purple, so unreadable). Yeah, I thought it was Eclipse's fault...nope. I had to go to /usr/share/themes/Adwaita/gtk-2.0/gtkrc and change the tooltip_bg/fg_color to #f5f5b5/#000000. Let me change this in a convenient way next time...
  • Non-System Partitions: This isn't a big deal, but annoying. So I set up a few partitions just for general use during installation. I (in the wheel group) couldn't access them unless root. I had to change the umask in /etc/fstab for these.

That's all I can think of for now. Some of these problems are GNOME 3.6's. WTFITQA (Where the f/ck is the QA?)

Re:I completely agree... (1)

RedHackTea (2779623) | about 2 years ago | (#42676333)

Another one I remembered:

No Updater GUI: Not a big deal, since I always update with "sudo yum update." However, if you like the GUI, you now have to go to "Details" (it's in the Applications; you can also get to it from System Settings at the bottom). This is not intuitive at all. Of course, if there are updates, a popup will appear, but wonder if you close it and forget... I think they should have left the Updater GUI program -- unless they're only targeting super users now.

Re:I completely agree... (1)

RedHackTea (2779623) | about 2 years ago | (#42676407)

For anyone curious, I fixed the system tray issue using this answer [askubuntu.com] . (It's for Ubuntu, but works for Fedora.)

I tried FC18.. well TRIED to try... (1)

rjr162 (69736) | about 2 years ago | (#42676207)

It wouldn't install. Right after where you choose to install the bootloader, it would just crash. The debug info didn't tell why at all. That happened with both the Beta and final releases. Linux Mint and lubuntu installed just fine (as did centos 6.3).

I finally figured out what was causing it.. the optimus or whatever on my Dell laptop, where it uses the integrated Intel video for low demand stuff and an Nvidia chip for higher demand periods. I only figured this out after trying to get the nvidia binary driver installed and saw mention on some guides.about didisabling it if you have issues (and I could see both devices loaded). After disabling in the bios fedora installed fine (but that Damon gnome desktop... grr! )

Anyhow, a little more info on why the installer crashed would have been great considering two debian based systems and centos installed fine with optimus enabled

Re:I tried FC18.. well TRIED to try... (1)

wvmarle (1070040) | about 2 years ago | (#42676501)

I'm impressed that you're putting so much effort in installing something you don't actually like.

Re:I tried FC18.. well TRIED to try... (1)

Impy the Impiuos Imp (442658) | about 2 years ago | (#42676527)

He likes bitching at things, much like you apparently.

in other news (1)

smash (1351) | about 2 years ago | (#42676233)

... Alan has given up his job and Linux hacking for the time being for "family reasons" according to his profile on G+

Cat got tongue? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42676293)

This is news?

Any bad news about other Linux distros are music for Slashdot as it proclaims that the only distro that "rulez" is Ubuntu.

Hug... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42676321)

Someone needs a hug. I'll be the 1st to say that the installer is scary with disk selection and I had to
use strace to figure why vmplayer wouldn't build. I don't use no stinkin' updater - real linux users use yum
and the real tough ones use rpm exclusively. But once I got everything installed (it's only been a few days since then)
I can see it's actually in pretty good shape on an older slower test system. So much so, that I'm going to
upgrade my main system to 18. RPMfusion worked nicely, too.

BTW, I'm upping from F12. I actually consider this (F18) the most stable since 12. That's really the sad part.
There are really talented people working on this, but there seems to be no serious testing or regression performed.

I think much of it is the left-over Microsoft mentality -- something that's very difficult to move past with some developers.
Want to see the classic deer-in-the-headlights face - ask a Microsoft C++ experienced developer what a
compound literal is. Yup, that's what I'm talking about.

optimize was the word...

Who cares (1)

TheDarkener (198348) | about 2 years ago | (#42676363)

What just one person thinks? Think for yourself. Jeebus.

Interesting post from Red Hat employee at Phoronix (5, Interesting)

atomican (2799855) | about 2 years ago | (#42676455)

Yes I know, Phoronix is a pretty scummy website at times with Michael taking credit for basically every new thing that happens to Linux, but there are some interesting posts on its forum when its users are not constantly fighting with each other.

AdamW (Adam Williamson, "the Fedora QA Community Monkey" according to the project wiki) posted this in response to this very topic:

It does always amaze me how people are happy to download an entire *computer operating system* and throw it at their computer - with valuable data on it! - without even reading the damn documentation.

For Pete's sake people, it's an operating system, not a new version of Angry Birds. You might want to read something about it before hitting the big red button. The F18 release documentation is pretty clear on the fact that the new installer UI is a first cut and still has rough edges: this isn't hidden information, it's called out in the release announcement itself. There's a guy on the Google+ thread who says "Not knowing that The World Had Changed, I downloded the DVD of F18 and tried up upgrade my machine" - where do these people come from? And what rock have they been living under while three thousand articles explained that F18 has a new installer? Sheesh.

So yeah: in case you didn't get the memo, F18 has a new installer and a new upgrade tool. They are both v1.0s. As in the case of all v1.0s, you may want to exercise some frickin' caution. If you want a Fedora release whose installer and upgrade tools were stabilized over a period of several years and 20+ releases, Fedora 17 is right in the torrent list. It works fine. If you want a nice polished version of newUI, you might want to wait for F19 or F20. It won't kill you. An operating system installer is a psychotically complex lump of code, it is not plausible that you can entirely rewrite one and get it working perfectly on the first try, and we never aimed to. We aimed to have something that broadly implemented the new design and worked reasonably well in simple cases, and that's what F18 has.

GNOME 3 is GNOME 3. We package it up and ship it. If you don't like it, use something else; Fedora does not skimp on the choices.

(http://phoronix.com/forums/showthread.php?77039-Alan-Cox-Calls-Fedora-18-quot-The-Worst-Red-Hat-Distro-quot/page4)

To which someone immediately pointed out the obvious:

Adam, that really doesn't cut it as an excuse. Yes, it's a new installer, and this fact is well advertised. But if you have so little faith in the installer that you're cautioning people not to upgrade to F18, why the hell would you even release it?

This is becoming too common in the Linux world, with distros being released with half-implemented pet projects of its developers (Unity, PulseAudio, Fedora's new installer) under the guise of a final release. Rough rough rough, and not something people coming from say OS X or even Windows 7 would expect. Yes it's free, but it's also very off-putting and tends to reinforce the idea that you get what you pay for.

Worst judgment by overwhelmed oldman (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 2 years ago | (#42676533)

I run FC18-KDE since it is out.
Yes the new installer seem to be a concept from very,very drunken aliens-mobile developers who certainly so smoked bad stuff that they didn't realize they work on desktop pc's...

Since day one, after I installed my usual stuff for coding, multimedia, NVidia accel driver,etc...

I got 0.000000000~ issues with FC18.KDE-

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