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Microsoft Software Businesses Linux

Microsoft & Linux Should Co-Exist In China 162

Posted by Zonk from the get-along-or-i'm-turning-this-country-around dept.
alabamarasta writes "In a recent report from China titled "Embattled Linux fights back", it appears that Microsoft is just as embattled." From the article: "Citing an executive at Microsoft headquarters, Lu said Linux and Windows should co-exist. Microsoft in recent years has been struggling with an increasing number of security flaws on its Windows platforms while Linux is generally regarded as more secure. 'For users, openness increases the trustworthiness,' said Lu."
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Microsoft & Linux Should Co-Exist In China More

Microsoft & Linux Should Co-Exist In China

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  • The Chinese market will be the decisive battle ground between Linux and Windows. Indeed, whoever manages to become the leader in that market will soon become the world leader. Why is that? Because the Chinese market has the potential to completely dwarf both the American and European markets. Once the Chinese market has matured, investors will think of American and the EU as they today think of Luxembourg and Jamaica.

    • Just curious after reading your assertions. How many average families own computers? Or do you fall back on "Once...Chinese market has matured", when will this occur? Will the market ever mature while it is not a free market? Do you seriously feel that the EU and US will ever have economies on the scale of Jamaica?

      • Re:The Chinese market is the battlegrounds.. (Score:5, Interesting)

        by CyricZ ( 887944 ) on Sunday October 23, 2005 @02:18PM (#13858637)
        It depends on what regions you're considering, with respect to how many families own computers. Not as many people in the rural areas have computers, but that's offset by them being very prevalent in the cities. Of course, the population of just the cities of China are several times the population of the entire United States. But then again, individuals and families aren't the only computer users. Businesses also require PCs, and operating systems to run on them.

        Remember, China is just beginning its growth as a modern country. It's perhaps where the US was in the mid 1800s. It's transitioning from basically a slave-based economy towards a true enterprise economy. It'll be a mature market before you, the US and the EU know it.

        • I disagree.

          As long as fossil fuels power modern economies and the global supply of oil fails to increase, there is a hard limit on how much economies like China and India can grow.

          The US gets first "dibs" on international oil. China doesn't have any oil of its own outside of small deposits like the South China Sea.

          • The US gets first "dibs" on international oil. China doesn't have any oil of its own outside of small deposits like the South China Sea.

            Ah but China has trouble with some of that oil, Viet Nam has claims on some of it as well.

            Falcon
          • What about workers? Will workers have the ability to move back and forth? Will telecommuting make it so that workers all over the world can keep or find a job?

            The idea of having an expanded workforce is good, but we need to find ways to efficiently put these workers and markets to use. We need to be profiting for a reason other than for profits sake, what are our goals?

          • The US gets first "dibs" on international oil.

            No, the oil flows to whoever will pay the most. Unless there's armed conflict, of course. But if we were to try and fight China, who would make our soldiers' uniforms? Joking aside, the oil shortage would have to be *very* bad to justify war between China and the US, because the disruption to trade would devestate both our economies, and that we do not have dibs on oil.

            Anyways, my prediction is that the Chinese will be quicker than the West to adopt Nucle

            • Anyways, my prediction is that the Chinese will be quicker than the West to adopt Nuclear power if oil scarcity begins to crimp their growth.

              BusinessWeek had an article on that a few weeks ago. China is already planning on building quite a few nuclear reactors to generate electricity. I don't exactly recall how many sites were planned (15? 18? 24?), but it was more then a handful. IIRC, these sites were already out for bidding and might have even started construction by now.

    • Re:The Chinese market is the battlegrounds.. (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Decaff ( 42676 ) on Sunday October 23, 2005 @02:22PM (#13858655)
      The Chinese market will be the decisive battle ground between Linux and Windows. Indeed, whoever manages to become the leader in that market will soon become the world leader. Why is that? Because the Chinese market has the potential to completely dwarf both the American and European markets.

      This doesn't make any sense at all.

      Firstly, there is no single battleground between Linux and Windows. There are a number of separate battlegrounds: mobile devices, embedded systems, home desktops, corporate workstations, small servers, mid-range servers, enterprise servers, e-mail servers etc. Winning or losing in any one of these may not have much of an impact in any other.

      Secondly, what happens in one area of the world in terms of OS dominance does not imply or force success elsewhere. For example, Microsoft technologies have far more dominance in the USA than in Europe.

      Thirdly, there is a huge and growing market that has a tendency to appreciate open source - India.

      So, the idea of there being a 'decisive battleground', and this being China, does not make sense.

      Once the Chinese market has matured, investors will think of American and the EU as they today think of Luxembourg and Jamaica.

      Extremely unlikely. America and the EU are far too large and skill & resource-rich by comparison.

      • Re:The Chinese market is the battlegrounds.. (Score:4, Insightful)

        by CyricZ ( 887944 ) on Sunday October 23, 2005 @02:28PM (#13858680)
        What's to say that Linux won't take over in all those areas that you mentioned? You're assuming incorrectly that it can only "win" in one area. That's far from the truth. It could easily become dominant on all sorts of devices, for all sorts of applications, in China.

        Indeed, India will also be an important battleground. However, China is far more coherent as a whole than India. India is a big locomotive, but it's not fully up to speed yet. China is just as big, and it's going far faster.

        America and the EU are far too large and skill & resource-rich by comparison.

        That's what Europeans said about America a couple hundred years ago. And witness how the economy of America overtook that of Europe for many decades. It happened once, and it may very well happen again. The upstart will overtake the existing economies.

        • What's to say that Linux won't take over in all those areas that you mentioned? You're assuming incorrectly that it can only "win" in one area.

          I'm not assuming that at all. In fact my view is that Linux is indeed likely to win out in many if not most areas. My point is that any statement about a single 'battleground' either in an area of IT or geographically, is far too simplistic.

          That's what Europeans said about America a couple hundred years ago. And witness how the economy of America overtook that of Eu
        • America is successful because it accepted all of the best people in the world. China is not welcoming immigration, in fact China is xenophobic about foreigners at this time. China may accept you in, but doing business in China is like going to war on their turf.

          So when the Chinese economy is built, will China accept American workers in the same way America accepted Chinese workers? If China is about to become the new America isnt it time that we think about moving there?
        • Linux could become dominant?. Linux "IS" becoming dominant. It allows for localisation of software development with support ,servicing and eductional resources being free of licence fees and external control. It is the logical way forward in a technologically inter connected world. Licencing of this global interconnection to one monopolistic company is well, just plain stupid.

          Microsoft and Linux can't coexist, microsoft have stated over and over again that it is nothing but a competitor and that they were

      • Firstly, there is no single battleground between Linux and Windows. There are a number of separate battlegrounds: mobile devices, embedded systems, home desktops, corporate workstations, small servers, mid-range servers, enterprise servers, e-mail servers etc. Winning or losing in any one of these may not have much of an impact in any other.

        Some areas may not have much effect but there are significant ties between the others and Microsoft has often exploited this fact to leverage from one to the other.

        The o
        • Some areas may not have much effect but there are significant ties between the others and Microsoft has often exploited this fact to leverage from one to the other.

          One of the reasons Linux is more viable as a corporate desktop now is the past success of Linux in the corporate server market.

          I largely agree, although I think the degree of linkage has been hugely overstressed. For example, the primary reason that Linux is viable as a corporate desktop is that there is Linux software that can deal reasonably w

      • GP: "Once the Chinese market has matured, investors will think of American and the EU as they today think of Luxembourg and Jamaica."

        Parent: "Extremely unlikely."

        Agreed, but not for the same reasons you offer. Every time I see people writing about the 'China Market', I want to repeat the words a friend of mine (and professional China expert) said to me:

        There Is No China Market

        The China Market is a fiction. It is a fanciful conception of how market forces can be imposed on China, promoted by wild

    • The Chinese market will be the decisive battle ground between Linux and Windows.

      Why? Most users don't care that much in the first place what OS they are using as long as it does what they want. Indeed, whoever manages to become the leader in that market will soon become the world leader.

      World leader in what? Shoddy software? Why is that? Because the Chinese market has the potential to completely dwarf both the American and European markets. Once the Chinese market has matured, investors will th

      • Shouldnt we be microfinancing in Africa about now?

        As much as I support investment, why should we put all our eggs into the Chinese basket? Yes Linux should be spread to the third world, and yes there will be new markets in the third world 40-50 years from now, but why is China the central focus?

        We should be spreading linux everywhere and investing everywhere we can, basically if a country is not at war and has a growing economy we should invest. Microfinancing would allow average citizens to invest in the t
    • And who does the Chineese rather pay their money to, a foreign company or a couple of domestic ones? I think the answer is pretty obvious. Its politics and i dont see Microsoft having any chance of alter the view of the Chineese government. China is not as corrupt as the US just yet.
      • Let's have a plan. What is the plan? Give all our money to China? Why? Oh I know!
        The national debt!

        Look, if we have to pay China back this way to make up for our debts to China, then fine, we should at least admit that we are paying what we owe. Otherwise we make our workers into suckers and our investors get to lose their money.

      • China is not as corrupt as the US just yet.
        This has got to be the most ill-informed comment I've seen in a long time. I live there and have daily contact with the police system, the court system and the prison system. China is corrupt beyond your comprehension of the word.
    • If America is such trash and the jobs are all going to China, how can we all move to China? What the hell are us programmers and engineers going to do for a living? Buy stock?
    • Once the Chinese market has matured, investors will think of American and the EU as they today think of Luxembourg and Jamaica.

      I wonder what they'll think of the Indian market then.
    • The Chinese market will be the decisive battle ground between Linux and Windows.

      Except that Microsoft will still be getting nine out of every ten Dollars (or Yuans)
      spent on operating systems whether they have 80% or 20% market share.

      Bill Gates won't particularly care about his piece-of-the pie if there's double-digit
      annual sales growth in that huge market.

    • Once the Chinese market has matured, investors will think of American and the EU as they today think of Luxembourg and Jamaica.
      We'll think of the EU as we think of Luxembourg? What the hell are you talking about? Do you mean some other country? Luxembourg is a part of EU [eu.int].

  • Profit Making (Score:5, Insightful)

    by geomon ( 78680 ) on Sunday October 23, 2005 @01:56PM (#13858547) Homepage Journal
    Lu, also a former senior government official, was responding to a report released by the China Software Industry Association (CSIA) in late August which called for the government to review its preference for open-source software. The government's "excessive preference" for the open-source Linux platform is harming the domestic software industry, and Linux's business model is flawed as the low, or no, charge is thwarting the profitability of Linux developers, the CSIA asserted in the report.

    Now while I am not opposed to people making money from their work, nor am I opposed to people making huge profits from their businesses, I find rediculous the whole idea that government should intercede in a free market because somebody can't make money from a commodity. If you can't make a living or profit from something, then find a new line of work or business. Why should the government demand that something make money?

    So what is the solution to their "problem"? Are they going to ban open source software because it drives profit making companies into the ground? Does this mean you have to get a license to write software, or work for a profit-making company to write code? Where does this protection racket end?

    I know that many /.ers make a living writing code and take offense at the notion that they should have to give up a living because someone else does their job without asking for money. But consider the fact that no one charges you for the air you breathe. I'm sure that someone, somewhere, would love to charge you for that air and the fact that you get it for free means some poor schmuck can't make a profit from it. Hell, we should demand that the government get involved and require everyone who breathes to pay a toll to some company who will ensure that air is always available for us to breathe.

    What is funniest about this whole 'software industry can't make money' discussion is that no one considers the huge profit potential of every thing someone does for another person just because they like them or want to help.

    Charities rob profit-making enterprises.

    • "I know that many /.ers make a living writing code and take offense at the notion that they should have to give up a living because someone else does their job without asking for money. But consider the fact that no one charges you for the air you breathe. I'm sure that someone, somewhere, would love to charge you for that air and the fact that you get it for free means some poor schmuck can't make a profit from it. Hell, we should demand that the government get involved and require everyone who breathes t

    • Re:Profit Making (Score:2, Insightful)

      by unixbugs ( 654234 )
      If you can't make a living or profit from something, then find a new line of work or business.

      The "software" I write is more of a system level interface to various services and how they interact. Managing things like group activity and payroll are done by taking bits and pieces of existing tools and cobbling together what I need along with substantial code of my own to make them interoperate. This is the beauty of OSS development and is something very painful on a closed source platform. The "business mod

    • I find rediculous the whole idea that government should intercede in a free market because somebody can't make money from a commodity.
      I know. Look at how much money is made from selling bottled water [bottledwater.org]. That's a commodity if I ever saw one.
      • I know. Look at how much money is made from selling bottled water. That's a commodity if I ever saw one.

        It's quite unbelievable really. And the US has to be one of the worst cases. I mean consider how much is made by some [budweiser.com] major [millerbeer.com] purveyors [coors.com] of bottled water in the US.

        Jedidiah.

    • Re:Profit Making (Score:3, Interesting)

      by julesh ( 229690 )
      So what is the solution to their "problem"? Are they going to ban open source software because it drives profit making companies into the ground?

      The solution to their problem is the same approach that I usually propose to all government IT spending: when assessing the options available for any project, an equal but opposite factor to the cost of the project to the government should be the tangible benefit that will be derived by the local economy.

      So, for instance, say we need to equip a department with a fi
    • In a truly free market the prices will always get driven as low as possible.. For software this will be free or close-to..
      The only cost of producing software is a one-off development cost, and this can be offset by reusing code that has already been developed.
      The price of software has been kept artificially high, while hardware has gone down in price massively.. However software has much furthur to fall.
      There will always be things that will have to cost money, because there is an ongoing cost to provide the
    • I can't remember all the details, but it boiled down to the Navy needed a new ship, and they could choose between two shipyards, say Norfolk and Boston. It would be more expensive to build it in Norfolk, but they chose it anyway. Turns out that if they didn't build there, then the shipyard would have to shut down. Then the Navy would only have one operational shipyard for any future projects. It was decided that it would be cheaper to use the more expensive yard in the long run.

      The government often subs

  • My fave: "Linux's business model is flawed" (Score:5, Insightful)

    by fuzzy12345 ( 745891 ) on Sunday October 23, 2005 @01:57PM (#13858552)
    It's hard to argue with success, but claiming Linux's business model is flawed? It isn't like Linux got to where it is today through tied selling (bundling), being subsidized by other business units, government mandates, being sold below the cost of production or anything else which might conceivably be called a flawed business model.

    If this is the spread of a flawed business model with nearly no ad budget, just think how successful it could have been if it had followed the antitrust-attracting model of some well known competitors!

    • The government's "excessive preference" for the open-source Linux platform is harming the domestic software industry and Linux's business model is flawed as the low, or no, charge is thwarting the profitability of Linux developers, the CSIA said in the report.

      Yeah, we all know that the best way for China to make more money is to spend gobs of cash on Microsoft. Don't tell Bill that China is robbing him blind that way, he'll have Steve throw a chair at you.

    • It isn't like Linux got to where it is today through tied selling (bundling), being subsidized by other business units, government mandates, being sold below the cost of production or anything else which might conceivably be called a flawed business model.

      All the major distributions "bundle" software in one way or the other. Look at SuSE, you can install 20 GB of software by default. While this isnt "bundling" in typical context it still has the same taste coming out of your mouth.

      As for corporate sup

      • The bundling of suse is very different:
        Suse don't gain anything from bundling lots of third party software, it`s merely done for convenience.
        Suse bundle multiple apps performing the same function, to give users choice, there is nothing to stop someone coming along and offering them additional software.. For instance if they were bundling a browser, they wouldn`t refuse a request from netscape to bundle netscape`s browser aswell.
        Apps bundled with suse can be REMOVED..

        Suse`s bundling is more like what dell do
    • There is a territory that even M$ won't go near. Look at RedFlag Linux. It's got a penguin carrying the communist flag proudly. From the political standpoint, RedFlag is a no brainer. Sure windows can have chinese fonts, but I don't think M$ can go any further than that.

  • Lu said Linux and Windows should co-exist (and then you put square brackets around what was inferred ... however this is what I am guessing was inferred) ... [so that Microsoft can get its foot in the door, however MS still doesn't care about Linux.]
    Not every relationship is mutually beneficial. Parsitic relationships are valid relationships too. That's what business has to do to get the foot in the door whether it be Microsoft or somebody else.

  • Steve must be going nuts over this article

    Seriously though, not even Microsft can stop the widespread adoption of Linux and this article is just the beginning.

    Especially when it comes to China and India. These countries have loads of good engineers and they can't be held hotage to someone in Seattle. Microsoft is forced to play nice.

    • Re:In the news: Ballmer Throws Chair Across Pacifi (Score:4, Interesting)

      by Andy_R ( 114137 ) on Sunday October 23, 2005 @02:08PM (#13858591) Homepage Journal
      Microsoft have been incredibly slow to realise that Windows can always go back to being what it was when it first got really successful at version 3.1, a GUI. Most people don't know what an OS even is, and wouldn't be aware of any difference (except increased stablility) if what they bought from Microsoft was a GUI for Linux instead of an actual operating system with GUI built in. Taking this approach (albeit with a Unix core) hasn't hurt Apple's OSX.

      AS soon as Microsoft realise this, they can cut their development costs massively, and keep the same sales figures. I have no idea why their shareholders are not demanding this already!
      • It's not that easy. They'd still have to find a way to maintain backwards compatibility with existing Windows applications. And that's not necessarily very easy to do over a system like Linux, as shown by the Wine project. Sure, some apps work, but it's nothing like real Windows. Often times it is more unstable than Windows, and that is unfortunate.

        While they may be able to reduce their development costs on the software underlying the GUI, they'd immediately lose such benefits because they'd need to reimple
      • Microsoft have been incredibly slow to realise that Windows can always go back to being what it was when it first got really successful at version 3.1, a GUI.

        That's because Microsoft didn't become spectacularly successful by marketing a extraordinary GUI that everyone wanted. Their 'success' hinged on a stranglehold on the channel and then locking out the competition.

        There's no way for them to go back to that situation.

  • This *IS* interesting... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by zappepcs ( 820751 ) on Sunday October 23, 2005 @02:05PM (#13858578) Journal
    Seems to me that the issue at hand is not the way F/OSS works, but how China can work F/OSS.

    FTFA: "If China manages to set up a Linux community, it could take advantage of the talents and resources of the global community to better develop and promote Linux and foster top-notch software developers, Lu said."

    While MS has had a good run of dominating the software industry, it would appear that there are those that don't want to play ball with MS, and are looking at ways to go around that little licensing issue.

    Linux can milk a cow, but how do you milk an industry without a licensing scheme that fills your bank account? Is there plans for China to be the next big 'outsourcing' server for software development?
  • M$ has been aiming at countries like china, thailand, india, brazil etc. with stripped down Win XP. Who on earth would in right minds pay $300 or so in these countries for a full fledged OS when alternatives are available for free. Even pirated copies are sold at every street corner with no watchdog around. M$ seriously needs to rethink its marketing strategy to penetrate these economies and counter growing support for OSS. Maybe a different pricing strategy or leasing out the lisence for a period of time might work.

  • Doesn't matter yet (Score:5, Interesting)

    by LaughingCoder ( 914424 ) on Sunday October 23, 2005 @02:12PM (#13858611)
    IMO, it is currently very difficult to make a profit selling software (or indeed anything distributed digitally) in the Chinese market. Protections against illicit copying (which is rampant) are rarely enforced, and black-market copies are ubiquitious (this goes for Windows, DVDs, music CDs, other software titles). As China evolves these protections will have to be developed and enforced; they'll need them to protect their own content-creators, not just foreign ones. Only then will it make sense for Microsoft to aggressively pursue the Chinese market. Until then, "co-existing" with Linux is the smart strategy to adopt.
    • Outside of the U.S., Canada, and Western Europe, copyrights are ignored. Iran has a 99% piracy rate- one person buys one copy and then copies it 1,000,000 times. China's is 94%. There is no vested interest (home-grown industry) into preventing piracy, so the governments don't waste their time and money protecting somebody else's assets.

      Until the rest of the world produces a lot of copyrighted works, piracy will run rampant there.
    • As China evolves these protections will have to be developed and enforced; they'll need them to protect their own content-creators, not just foreign ones.

      That's an interesting opinion. The whole concept of "owning" the content you create is fairly new and, in fact, quite artificial. There really is no pressing need for a country to create any sort of content-protection scheme. If musicians don't get paid for the songs they sing, you may lose the whole celebrity rapper subculture, but the country really is

      • People will still make music to be famous (and fame will amount much higher if copies of the songs are available for free) and musicians can still generate revenue from live shows, you can`t pirate a live show and a live performance is a physical job that will always have a price associated with it, unlike mass reproduction of digital media.
        Allowing media to be copied for free while charging for live performances will be a much fairer system..

        Poor kids will be able to have just as large a music collection a

  • What's so different here? (Score:5, Informative)

    by totallygeek ( 263191 ) <sellis@totallygeek.com> on Sunday October 23, 2005 @02:16PM (#13858631) Homepage
    Hell, most of the networks I encounter have Linux and Windows co-existing. Sometimes even interoperating!
    • As companies consolidate, they consolidate data centers and IT staff. I continually find more teams supporting both Windows and UNIX/Linux environments. Unless one can completely dominate the other, we'll continue to see different operating systems used by various corporations.

  • Capitalism and Communism in the same country? (Score:1, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Only in China.

  • They should coexist everywhere. Just as with any other useage the proper tool should be used. For most people, who don't care to learn that much about an operating system Windows is a fair tool, it's relatively easy to install the OS, install applications, and use (though the Mac beats Windows in ease of use and installing apps). Linux, although getting better, isn't easy to the average person to use. However unlike Windows Linux is stable and doesn't crash nearly as much.

    Falcon
    • What sort of computer are you using? I am currently running Windows XP Pro with SP2 with no problems whatsoever. Yes, it is definately worth using the product that is best suited for what is necessary, but the thing is (as other people here will agree with), what is the point of targeting the minority product ? When firefox was first released, it was declared rock-solid. Now it is being used by a wider audience, they are discovering more 'holes'. (Anyone know of the status of Opera on security?)

      • Currently I'm using an HP with Windows ME. I use it mostly at home and it's the newest I have, I got it in 2000 or 2001. To my left I have a Power Mac 7300/200 I got used at about the same tyme. And to my right I have a Microway [microway.com] DEC Alpha running both Windows NT 4.0 and Linux I got in 1997. However I haven't even booted up either the Mac or the Alpha in more than a year. For my next computter I plan on getting a Mac Powerbook, probably in January or February.

        When firefox was first released, it was de

      • On the other hand, I'm on Ubuntu Linux and I can honestly say that OS and application installation is trivial. Both operating systems have moved on from the historical stereotype portrayed in the grandparent.

        If I were going to compare negative features these days, I'd point to Linux's lack of standardisation (binary compatibility and gui toolkits being the most annoying) and Windows' lack of command line control. A decent implementation of kill -9 would be almost enough to get me using Windows; a consistent

  • Concerns about security more than bugs (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Mostly a lurker ( 634878 ) on Sunday October 23, 2005 @02:48PM (#13858769)
    The 2003 Chinese directive that government ministries must use exclusively locally developed or open source software was not just based on perceived better code quality or cost. The Chinese authorities at the time (and probably still now) were very concerned about possible backdoors for US security agencies in US closed source products. IMHO, their concerns have some merit. A Google search for "Lew Giles" is interesting.

  • I'd agree, but... (Score:1, Insightful)

    by petrus4 ( 213815 )
    The problem is that the GNU trolls are likely to be just as opposed to co-existence on Linux's side of the fence as Microsoft are.

    People continue making out that Microsoft is always the sole bad guy in any such argument...but the truth is that there are a lot of people associated with Linux who don't appreciate diversity of opinion, either. The GNU crowd want just as much a monoculture of their own as Microsoft does. Try advocating the use of *any* other license to a GNU zealot sometime and watch what happe
    • the truth is that there are a lot of people associated with Linux who don't appreciate diversity of opinion, either.

      Linux is all about diversity. Just look at how many Linux distros there are.
    • To the aforementioned GNU trolls among the moderators:- Your character (or lack thereof) is really showing here, guys. I might have expected to get modded Flamebait or Troll, but Offtopic? The parent was in no way Offtopic, and you moderating it such is a blatant display of your percieved need to squelch dissent where GNU or the GPL is concerned, at any cost.

      What do you find so threatening? The fact that, deep down, somewhere within your mostly vacant little minds, maybe, just maybe, you realise that I act
  • openness increases the trustworthiness

    It's teh communism!

  • Article summary (Score:4, Informative)

    by pjrc ( 134994 ) <paul@pjrc.com> on Sunday October 23, 2005 @03:09PM (#13858870) Homepage Journal
    For anyone who didn't bother to read the Embattled Linux Fights Back article, here's roughly what you missed:

    Lu Shouqun, leader of a Linux advocacy group believes the Chineese govt should make more use of Linux and open source.

    The CSIA (an industry group, likely funded in part by Microsoft) claims (in a "report") the govt preference for open source is harming the software business.

    Lu says open source is high quality, low cost, and can coexist with Microsoft, openness is good. Lu cites (but no actual citation info is given, no link, no name, no exact quote, no date, nothing) that someone at Microsoft said Linux and Windows should co-exist.

    CSIA says GPL destroys profitability. Lu says they misunderstand the GPL, admits China linux businesses are unprofitable, and claims that community and international collaboration is needed.

    CSIA spews FUD... patents might destroy linux. Lu replies that proprietary software faces more patent risks.

    Lu says community in China is needed.

    .

    The other article is pretty much the same thing rehashed and edited down a little.

    Pretty much more of the same. Linux/open source/free software advocates say one thing, Microsoft shills say the opposite.

    • The CSIA (an industry group, likely funded in part by Microsoft)

      Whwn China joied the WTO, Microsoft was the first foreign corporation invited into the CSIA.

  • Does anybody else notice how silly it is to suggest true competition between the two should take place in a communist country?
  • I believe that there is a right tool for each job.

    Linux is great but Windows will still be needed for running apps like those from Adobe-Macromedia. Of course, you could also use Macs but those can be expensive.

    Cheers,
    Adolfo

    PS. No, Gimp and Inkspace don't cut it. Yes, there will be other apps that Linux wont be able to run.
    • It's called Inkscape. Fairly familiar with the program, are you?
    • I have a better idea. How about we shut all the Adobe-Macromedia zealots out of the whole conversation? The whole world does not revolve around Adobe-Macromedia and you A-M zealots absolutely never miss an opportunity to try to turn everything into a Gimp-vs-Adobe flamewar, even things that have nothing to do with it at all. I'm starting to think that Adobe is just as bad as Microsoft.
  • Linux: Can we negotiate a truce? is there room for co-existance?
    [...]
    Can there be peace between us?

    Miscrosoft (with alien voice): Peace? No peace.

    Linux: What is it you want us to do?

    Microsoft (with alien voice): Die.

  • Distrust Of The West (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Weedlekin ( 836313 ) on Sunday October 23, 2005 @03:48PM (#13859114)
    I wonder how much of the Chinese determination to use open source, develop their own microprocessors, and generally make moves towards implementing an internally self-sustaining IT infrastructure may be driven by a profound distrust of Western governments and companies. After all, both have treated China pretty badly in the past, and they probably feel that we only allow them to trade with us today if they play by rules which benefit us far more than them. Add to this the fact that the US in particular has displayed a penchant for suddenly prohibiting the sale of certain technologies to countries that it doesn't like, and you have a set of very good reasons why the idea of not becoming dependent on Microsoft, Intel, or any other Western company could look very attractive to them.

    It is also likely that they are telling the truth about Linux' better security being a key feature for them. Totalitarian regimes are invariably paranoid, and even if MS could prove that the versions of Windows being sold in China haven't got back doors that the US government can use to spy on them, the fact that it is rife with keyloggers, bots, etc. is pretty good evidence that the CIA or similar could infect their systems with spying software quite easily. Far safer then to use not only an OS with a pretty good security track record in its own right, but also one with source code that they can examine for freedom from back doors, and modify with their own specialised security features if they want.

    Read up on the history of Sino-Western relations over the last couple of centuries, and then ask yourselves one question: if you were them, would you trust us not to totally fuck them over if there was a buck in it somewhere?

  • Embattled Linux (Score:3, Funny)

    by Ranger ( 1783 ) on Sunday October 23, 2005 @04:43PM (#13859456) Homepage
    Is that a new distribution?

  • Bang bang you lose, round eye! (Score:4, Interesting)

    by FishandChips ( 695645 ) on Sunday October 23, 2005 @05:05PM (#13859597) Journal
    It sure looks as if Microsoft is faced with a lose-lose in China and most likely the other major developing powers. Essentially it boils down to the fact that those powers use piracy as a political tool. The argument is really "Let us use Windows on a pirated basis, or at least a token-cost basis, until our economies are stronger otherwise we will take up Linux en masse and you will lose this huge market forever." What is left unsaid is that as soon as their economies are stronger, these powers will take up Linux or something else en masse anyway. They are never going to make themselves dependent on a US corporation. In the meantime, Microsoft is left doing darn near give-away deals (as in Indonesia) or issuing dinky cutdown editions for these markets that fool no one.

    Perhaps what we are really seeing is the beginning of a Microsoft withdrawal from swathes of the world that will accelerate in the years ahead. Microsoft's bastions are North America and Europe. The colony in China turned out to an expensive venture that led nowhere. The locals had other plans. They decided to produce not merely their own software but their own computers too.
  • They're the ones with all the patents and lawyers and restrictive EULAs.
  • "openness increases the trustworthiness, said Lu."

    Might want to mention that to your government, Mr. Lu. On second thought, you might want to wait till you're out of the country before you mention that to your government.
  • You folks talking about Linux as if it were another corporation with a CEO and a board of directors...we must not forget a very important factor: Linux is you. Linux is me. Linux is every programmer who has lived and every programmer who is yet to be born. The licensing makes it belong to everybody at the same time. True, corporations like Red Hat, you are not them. But Red Hat is only a teeny part of Linux, what some people came along and decided to do with Linux just like any of the rest of us could do.

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