Red Hat Proposes Alternative Settlement To MSFT 532
cwsulliv writes "Red Hat, Inc. has proposed an alternative settlement to the Microsoft class-action lawsuit in Maryland. Microsoft originally proposed supplying a limited number of poorer school districts in the US with PC hardware and limited-license Microsoft software.
The alternative proposal submitted by Red Hat would have Microsoft supply NO software but dramatically increase the number of school districts receiving hardware. Red Hat in turn would supply ALL the software (Open Source) and unlimited support via their Red hat Network.
"
Touche (Score:2)
Re:Touche (Score:3, Interesting)
And when Microsoft viciously declines, it will give more fuel to their anti-competetive practices.
They won't have to. The schools themselves will viciously decline. Why anyone thinks that schools are just begging for Linux is beyond my comprehension. Does it occur to anyone that if they wanted it, they can install it anytime they want?
Re:Touche (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm not that sure. They'll have to choose between 20 PC's with MS software on them or 100 PC's with Free Software on them. Not to mention that with the MS deal, they end up in 5 years with 20 PC and NO software at all.
Re:Touche (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Touche (Score:3, Insightful)
Yes and they do regularly. This would only give them free support that would have normally cost them around $50 per installation, or they would have to do without if they used the typical free install.
I can only think back to the days of when I was in grade school and we had all Tandy trs80s in many classes. Linux is no more difficult to use than one of these machines, and it is much more powerfull. Even in Highschool we had all dos based 386s. yes 14 years old and useing a command line just like everyone else in our school. This was a regular public school as well, no high paid privite school teachers or special computer support staff. Just the underpaid public school teachers and the students to support everything.
Re:Touche (Score:4, Interesting)
Eh? Been in a school lately? I have, and I can safely say that the number of people there with the technical knowledge and/or self-confidence necessary to install an OS on to a computer is vanishingly small. They literally cannot install Linux (or anything else) if they want to, or if they can, they aren't allowed to because management is too worried about "messing stuff up". That's why support would be the critical piece of Red Hat's proposal... they would need to send out people to help install/convert the computers. Hmm, I wonder if Red Hat could use volunteers for this? I'd do it...
Re:Touche (Score:4, Interesting)
Really? How many people would be interested in volunteering for something like this? I can look into arranging something if there's sufficient interest...
Ed
Re:Touche (Score:3, Informative)
Microsoft is a monopoly. Legally speaking they are not only a monopoly, they are abusing that status. Schools are funded by the government. Punishing Microsoft by extending their monopoly further is a bad idea.
Pushing a government funded institution into helping break that monopoly is a good idea.
As far as whether the schools would install it themselves if they wanted to, that option doesn't even show up on their radar 99.99% of the time. That is the power of a monopoly.
I've also seen a lot of comments about how there isn't any educational software fo linux. To that I call bullshit. Given any subject there is something out there that some geek has whipped together, and it may not be produced by Mattel or Disney, but Linux is a much better tool for actually instilling the ability to learn than Windows.
I think this is a great publicity stunt by RedHat, and it won't go anywhere, but I'd love to see Linux in more schools. Yes I said more. There are quite a few schools that are already using it. do a google search for 'Linux education schools'
some useful(Karma Whoring) links:
http://www.seul.org/edu/ [seul.org]
http://www.riverdale.k12.or.us/linux/ [k12.or.us]
http://scnc.holt.k12.mi.us/techplan/index.html [k12.mi.us]
Red Hat will Settle For The Children (Score:2, Troll)
Re:Red Hat will Settle For The Children (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Red Hat will Settle For The Children (Score:4, Interesting)
In any case, this is a briliant PR/Marketing move on the part of RedHat, that will result in great publicity reguardless of Microsoft's answer.
Whoever came up witht this at RH is definitely earning their pay.
Re:Red Hat will Settle For The Children (Score:2)
Re:Red Hat will Settle For The Children (Score:2)
Re:Red Hat will Settle For The Children (Score:5, Insightful)
The five-years from now is nothing. When we're talking long run, we should be looking over the next 30, 40, 50 years. Nobody's looking for any money in 5 years, they're all thinking, "how can we get these kids hooked on our products so that for the rest of their lives, they're buying from us?" It's what every advertising agency is trying to do when it advertises to kids and teens -- it tries to hook them on a product for the rest of their consuming days.
Not much difference here, but at least Red Hat is an alternative to the beast.
To think they stand to gain nothing in the long run is foolish.
J
J
Re:Red Hat will Settle For The Children (Score:4, Insightful)
Hm, no, that's exactly what Microsoft was looking for in it's "you have to purchase any new software after 5 years" clause. (And yeah, it helps them in the long run, too.)
RedHat could be up to something (Score:3, Insightful)
They might be planning to supply the schools with a free RedHat OS and free support. The RedHat package they get will include free, RedHat-made commercial software, too - stuff which you pay for on the open market. (Let us name one such example "RedHat Office Pro 20xx".) Kinda like a 100% discount version of the college student discounts you find on software in campus computer stores.
There would be a catch - again, not without precedent: said discounted commercial software cannot be purchased or used by non students, and the student agrees to pay for a license upgrade once they graduate - or if they don't, then return it and uninstall it off their system.
Since these kids were hooked on RedHat Office Pro 20xx since they were wee lil tots or whatever, and RedHat has usurped Microsoft as the sole maker of industry-used word processors, databases and spreadsheets, etc., there'll be MS Office and RedHat Office Pro standing as giants in the office world, just like Apple & the PC (before Microsoft killed Apple). He will gladly pay for a copy of RH-Office Pro so he can have this necessary tool for his adult, employed life. (Just as many people went and bought the next version of MS Office at full price after they had graduated.)
RedHat could make RedHat Office 20xx a GPL'd thing at first, and then pull a VA Software, and fork it. And worse, they could cease doing any further development on the GPL'd RedHat Office. Everyone else would be free to take the source code and TRY and keep up with RH Office Pro via reverse engineering and what not. But it would be a road fraught with incompatibilities and missing features, to say the least. (See: MS Office vs Word Perfect 8 vs Star Office vs KOffice vs Abiword...)
RedHat seems to be saying they would not do that to us now, but with all the kids hooked on their software at a young age, and with the chance that they could rip half the market out of MS' hands (by properly exploiting this Macintosh-esque opportunity), they would have you over a barrel.
And of course when you graduate from college RedHat will make you pay for support.
And being a company that is publicly traded and not privately owned, they creditors - aka share holders - to answer to. You cannot ultimately predict what your creditors/share holders will demand, and as different people come and go who own large slices of RedHat debt (er, um stock), who knows what their agendas will be? I am sure Bob Young does not own 51% of his own debt/stocks. If he doesn't, his stockholders could forcibly usurp him by calling in the debt (selling their shares). Even if he has 51%, jeez, if angry stockholders sold their, say, 30%, Bob would be screwed bad.
My point is, RedHat COULD pull an Apple computer here, and make money off getting people hooked on them as kids, and while they are being altruistic now, RedHat has shareholders - and eventually the shareholders will not be so altruistic.
Re:RedHat could be up to something (Score:3, Interesting)
If we've learned anything, it's that these guy don't fuck around, and they'd eat their son to save their daughter.
Re:Red Hat will Settle For The Children (Score:2, Troll)
If the offer was sincere, they'd help the schools no matter what, now wouldn't they? It's not like Red Hat's a charity organization. They're trying to make money, and I don't think they'd object to being as rich as MS.
Re:Red Hat will Settle For The Children (Score:5, Insightful)
On the other hand, shouldn't it tell the DOJ / attourneys etc. something if another company is willing to do the same thing as Microsoft's punishment for free? Like maybe it's not a punishment? Like maybe BillG and pals are cackling evilly and toasting each other as soon as they get out of the coutroom as they are "punished" by further extending their power while at the same time looking like goody 2-shoes?
We should thank anyone who is willing to provide free stuff to schools (tobacco companies excluded), but MS was supposed to be being punished. It pisses people off to see them suggesting their own punishment and then refusing anything else. Its a double standard and displays the lack of integrity of the US justice system.
mwahaha (Score:4, Interesting)
What's too bad, though, is that MS had the foresight to see what a golden opportunity this sort of punishment was, and Red Hat is only seeing it now that MS has suggested it (and frantically scrambling to make sure it doesn't go through). I was livid when I heard about what a cop-out this whole thing turned out to be, but I was also a little peeved that none of the Linux vendors realized what a potentially important market this could be to invest in.
Have to hand it to Microsoft. Satan himself runs the show, but Satan is no dummy.
Never happen. (Score:2)
The question is: why? When Microsoft get their way, this move is merely an investment for a few years down the road, when every donated OS will need to be upgraded at great expense. So how is the Justice Department going to justify not accepting Red Hat's offer?
Re:Never happen. (Score:2)
I'm sure Red Hat knows it'll never happen, but the publicity is priceless. It reminds me of Taco Bell putting out that 40-foot-square target in the middle of the ocean and offering something to somebody if the space station plummeting to earth hit it: never happen, but it sure got them on a lot of news broadcasts.
Re:Never happen. (Score:2)
So how is the Justice Department going to justify not accepting Red Hat's offer?
Sheesh, perhaps because Linux is useless for classrooms, and the schools don't want it?
Screw what the schools actually want, we'll just force Linux down their throat and make them like it, right?
It's ingenious (Score:2, Funny)
I guess they learned from the best. (Microsoft)
:)
Deja vu (Score:5, Informative)
Great! And then what? (Score:2, Flamebait)
Let's not forget, these are students and teachers. These aren't Unix geeks running this stuff. Do we really expect them to run and get around in Linux? Anyone else remember how well the computers were supported in school? Almost not at all. If it wasn't spelled out in a book word for word they couldn't do it.
Also, The Red Hat Network is nice..but it's not what I'd call full support. Microsoft's support would go further than Windows Update, which is the equivelant of RHN.
Nice marketing ploy though..doubt it'll see much press.
Re:Great! And then what? (Score:2)
It's not a proposal for *only* Red Hat to provide the software, but for Red Hat to *also* provide software.
If competitors are excluded from the action, then it can hardly be called restitution for anti-competitive behavior!
Re:Great! And then what? (Score:2, Flamebait)
Re:Great! And then what? (Score:5, Funny)
Well, if you're learning about computers, EVERY program on a Linux box is educational!
Re:Great! And then what? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Great! And then what? (Score:2)
Re:Great! And then what? (Score:3, Insightful)
These types of issues should be the a priority. Not that we shouldn't be working on making computers useful as learning tools, we (should) have enough resources that we can dedicate something to that too. But our priority should be the foundation.
Kids wont have a problem with Linux (Score:5, Insightful)
If kids start with Linux they will A) have no problem learning it and B) be more sophisticated about how computers work. And, most people would agree, they'll have no problem working in Windows. On top of this, Linux offers a sophisticated development environment where kids can learn about programming. Without paying $500 per seat for Visual C++
children learn new things very easily, regardless of how complex they are. Look at how quickly they pick up languages for an example.
teach C to 7 year olds? (Score:2)
Re:Kids wont have a problem with Linux (Score:2, Insightful)
Unix: Everything is a file or a process.
Windows: We think you're dumb, so we'll try to do it for you.
The Windows bit is a joke...does the Windows platform actually have a philosophy? Anyway, once people understand the Unix philosophy, everything else about the system becomes much clearer. The first thing ever taught to me about Unix was the philosophy, and I'm much better off for it.
-Ben
Re:Great! And then what? (Score:5, Interesting)
Hrm, could this have a *little something* to do with the fact that Microsoft has had a monopoly in the schools. With 980,000 or so potential Linux computers in schools, software development companies might consider making their educational software cross-platform, or maybe even some Linux-specific offerings. Until now there was been no motivation for them to create education software for Linux, so a major ramification of going with RedHat's proposed settlement would be to get the ball rolling in this area. That is, of course, a very good effect of a punitive monopoly settlement, giving the competition a jump start.
Re:Great! And then what? (Score:5, Interesting)
I've been hearing this argument since the 80s, except then the status quo was the Apple II and the scary technical alternative was the PC. Then, 'everything' schools ran worked on their 10-year-old Apple 2s, and there was nothing running on Windows 3.1 or DOS that they were interested in. In reality, 'everything' was "The Oregon Trail", "Print Shop", and some crappy home-made software written in Basic. Now, the same attitude exists about Windows. What is all this 'educational' software, anyways? The crap book publishers "give" away to entice administrators to buy their book? The question isn't "what will the kids run if they have to use Linux", but "What are they running now that they need windows for?"
Fine. Prove it. (Score:3, Insightful)
I don't think you can do it, but I'm not just being negative. Even if you don't succeed, the results of any such attempt should be publicized, because they could eventually lead to success.
The two big problems schools face are funding and expertise. Schools don't have enough money to buy fancy commercial hardware and software and keep it up to date, and teachers are rarely above the level of the most naive consumer user, but they're on their own.
The Linux suggestion does a great job at dealing with the funding problem. That just leaves the problem of making these free systems do what schools need to do and completely admin'able by a very naive consumer-level user.
Making Linux systems easy enough for schoolteachers to use has never been any kind of priority for the Linux community.
Re:Great! And then what? (Score:2, Interesting)
Wolfenstein! Thats what I was running during my computer classes 10 years ago, and now it runs under Linux as well...
Seriously.. any computer in schools will mostly (My guess is at least 95 percent) be used for simple word processing and surfing. That you can do perfectly well under Linux.
The trick with publicly accessible computers in schools (with no support personell), is to get them to work most of the time. The standard configuration you use on your personal computer isnt really such an good idea. Take a look at projects like Linux Terminal Server Project for Schools [k12ltsp.org].Its not perfect yet, but it is a much better aproach to the problem than simply installing WindowsXP on all the computers.
If RedHat was allowed to put their software in such a number of computer (of course, nobody seriously believes they ever will), I think they could come up with something OK.
I hope it won't breed skript kiddies... (Score:3, Interesting)
Red Hat had better be prepared for a LOT of seemingly mundane support issues to come flooding through their doors. It would also behoove them to actually get in touch with LUGs in the area to see how they can assist with the training/support/etc of these 2 mil. RH boxes.
This is a very nice thing of them to offer, but it could also backfire in a huge way if not done correctly.
you don't get it (Score:3, Informative)
- the schools might already have licenses to windows software, what's stopping them from installing windows on the newly donated hardware? Also, if they at some point in time scrounge up enough loot for the MS software, what's stopping them from installing it then? Hardware would just be one less thing to buy.
-the schools might not have hardware in the first place (we're talking poorer areas here) and maybe, just maybe a hard to use by the layperson (but ultimately rewarding) computer is better than no computer at all. Am I right or am I right?
There are a few things I can think of right off the bat that schools could use under linux.
Star Office/Open Office, GIMP, the INTERNET for crying out loud, various programming languages (high school mostly). Shit, they could even get MAYA if they had the cash. I'm sure there's plenty more. The only thing lacking would be the kiddie "educational" and "edutainment" software.
These would be very usable computers no matter what OS they end up running.
I don't think this is going to happen but it would be really, really nice.
Re:there's always wine ! (Score:2)
Why not let the schools choose? (Score:4, Troll)
Let's not forget (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Let's not forget (Score:2)
Re:Let's not forget (Score:3, Insightful)
RedHat's not the company being sued for using their monopoly on the desktop as a lever for overcharging their customers, nor is RedHat the company that's worried that they may be fined much more heavily if they don't settle.
Re:Let's not forget (Score:2)
Re:Let's not forget (Score:2)
No doubt there is an element of self interest there. On the other hand, giving away a billion dollars of software *and support* for free is a generous offer, considering that Red Hat isn't on the receiving end of any lawsuits and could just as easily do nothing, like every other company.
I personally don't think Red Hat has any expectation of being taken up on this offer, and that they only made it as a way of demonstrating to the public how self-serving MIcrosoft's "settlement" really is.
Plus, what if the schools don't want Linux? Those boxes will be worthless.
This is a potential problem. A solution would be this: Divide up the total money evenly between all the schools, and then for each school demonstrate both Windows and Red Hat systems to the school officials, so that the officials are well informed about the pros and cons of each. Then allow the officials to spend their allotment of money on either type of system (e.g. they can buy 50 Windows workstations or 100 Red Hat workstations with their money).
Or hell, if Microsoft really wants to help the schools, why not make every PC a dual-boot system? Then the schools can decide what to run any time they boot the PC, instead of being forced to make the choice in advance.
uhh (Score:2)
Re:uhh (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Why not let the schools choose? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Why not let the schools choose? (Score:2)
Re:they can choose (Please mod parent up!) (Score:2)
Wheew! (Score:2, Insightful)
Jesus, that is quite a few PCs.
I for one hope this happens. I find it kinda amusing that Microsoft's proposed settlement includes extending their monopoly into schools, tying a generation or two to Microsoft products.
Judge: For the unlawful shooting of a Police Officer, I sentance you to be thrown in jail for 3 years!
Microsoft: I've got a better idea, why don't I kill 3 more? Then you can let me off!!1
More at The Register [theregister.co.uk]
Better (Score:2)
If Microsoft gave something tangible away such as hardware with no strings attached to what operating system must be installed on them, then I think the settlement would be more fair to competition such as RedHat. Microsoft needs to prove that competition can viably exist, not the other way around, in order to achieve a settlement.
Now, I'm not sure that RedHat should be the only company in on the agreement. This smells of opportunism. Like I said, whomever gets this deal is effectively advertising to the school children and teachers. What about making Microsoft pay for some iMacs too?
What idiocy (Score:2)
Does Red Hat think the schools just sit around and take whatever people give? In order for this Red Hat deal to mean anything, the schools have to WANT Linux. Why would they want it? What educational software that they use is going to be work on it?
Once again, it has to be pointed out: People use applications, not operating systems.
People can whine all they want about Microsoft, but it doesn't change the fact that Windows is the industry standard operating system. Schools are a lot better off having something useful, than some empty political gesture that will gather dust in the corner.
The idiocy is all yours. (Score:3, Insightful)
Have you investigated what educational software does or does not run under the various solutions for running Windows apps on Linux?
Microsoft doesn't care about providing a platform for educational software; they want the kids to be hooked on their proprietary operating system and applications. Mass indoctrination of future Microserfs is the key to their survival. So this action can hardly be called an act of restitution for anti-competitive behavior.
Re:The idiocy is all yours. (Score:2)
Have you investigated what educational software does or does not run under the various solutions for running Windows apps on Linux?
That's totally irrelevent. Whatever the software is, it's going to run better on Windows.
Microsoft doesn't care about providing a platform for educational software; they want the kids to be hooked on their proprietary operating system and applications.
Well, duh. Microsoft cares about providing a product that people want. Red Hat cares about providing a product that people want. McDonalds cares about providing a product that people want. Ford cares about providing a product that people want. If you want to characterize "creating something that people want" as attempting to "hook" them on it, that's your choice, but it's ludicrous.
So this action can hardly be called an act of restitution for anti-competitive behavior.
Considering it costs them a huge amount of money and provides something useful to a large number of people, I would say it is an act of restitution. Yes, even software costs them money, because a great majority of these schools would have had to purchase Windows.
The point is that the schools WANT Windows, and don't want Linux. God forbid that Microsoft supply them what they want, rather than what a bunch of zealots think they should have.
More idiocy. (Score:2)
Secondly, you are backpedalling now. First you said that it's about the applications, such as educational applications.
Now you are saying that ``schools WANT Windows and don't want Linux''.
So which is it, educational applications? Or the operating systems?
Regarding what people want: how *can* they want any alternatives, when those alternatives are shut out from the market by a monopoly? Of course Windows is what many people want. You can't want what you haven't seen. That's a consequence of the monopolistic practices which are supposed to be *punished* here, remember?
Re: (Score:2, Redundant)
Well played. (Score:3, Informative)
Each machine is probably around $1000, but they will get them for significantly cheaper, but they can install $1000 worth of software on those systems for almost free.
I like RedHat's point. I'd really like to see the actual numbers on this, e.g. the percentage of the settlement that results from hardware versus software expenses. Also, the limited licences are a scam.
umm....huh? (Score:2)
This would be the death of Red Hat (Score:5, Insightful)
Red Hat is going to support 1 million PC's for free. How much would that cost? How many do they currently support? Do they realize the beating these machines take? Do they think that school teachers and librarians (who usually do the first line support) have any computer knowledge?
Red hat is going to support 1 million installations of RED HAT LINUX for free.
This is insane. It's just a PR stunt.
Re:This would be the death of Red Hat (Score:2)
Problems will more likely be either stupid tech support questions, i.e. "How do I add a user" or more complicated ones that involve 1 single server, and a single client. Once you know how to set up both, you can duplicate the product as many times as you want. Whether or not people will duplicate in an intelligent manner is a different kettle of fish, but its not hard even by doing fresh installs.
I do agree, its a lot of sites to support. Just not as many as 1M (1m? heh)
Re:This would be the death of Red Hat (Score:2)
Re:This would be the death of Red Hat (Score:2, Interesting)
How much is MS prepared to spend to kill a competitor ??
Re:This would be the death of Red Hat (Score:4, Interesting)
They set up terminal servers.
Student blows up his/her machine? reset his account and reboot..
Voila it's fixed... something the janitor can do.
the server maintaince can be done part time by the CS teacher or by a maintaince firm .
managing 100 redhat boxen in a terminal server arrangement can be done by someone with very little computer knowlege.... like a MCSE for example... (Sorry for the stab... but it was begging for it.)
.
Buy Apple hardware? (Score:2, Interesting)
Damn clever (Score:3, Insightful)
And it's good PR for Red Hat. Nobody will take them up on the offer (though it would mean serious money for Red Hat in the long run if they did), and they get to look like they're even more strongly "for the children" than Microsoft. Nicely played!
Wow... (Score:3, Informative)
I am sure to be modded down for trolling, but I think this is a valid point.
Re:Wow... (Score:2)
Teach the kids Esperanto (Score:4, Funny)
Teach the kids Esperanto rather than English. It's a better language, though the real world generally uses a crappier one.
Not good for the children... (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Not good for the children... (Score:2, Insightful)
BTW, isn't that the message in every single goddamn ad for Windows? Ie, "So easy to use, even if you're a freaking moron who fell asleep in the middle ages and just woke up, you'll be emailing movies to your grandson in no time."
To that end, thats the argument Redhat should take to court. "If windows is so easy to use, whats the benifit of putting kids on them so early on?" At least that'd force MS to actually admit that using an operating system (tho I suppose they'd use the euphamism "computer") requires some learning and training.
But like I said, knowing Linux forces you to know computers. And knowing computers, its pretty easy to pick up Windows at your own leisure. The reverse is not true, as one of the main purposes and selling points of windows is that it allows people who don't have a clue about hardware and software to email, surf the web, and use word processing.
Re:Not good for the children... (Score:2)
Once you get into, say, grade 5 or 6, computers can become useful in order to provide a means of illustrating the abstractions of math, or to provide easier access to things like maps for geography, etc. But thats also around the age where the computer saavy start their tinkering (or some of them, at least). Which leads me to believe that it's a good age where kids can start to understand what a computer is, what software is, etc
> let them use computers with an OS their parents are likely to have on their home computer
Considering this is for poor schools, this is a glaring example of how you're projecting your situation or values on another demographic. These schools, and likely the parents of the kids who go there, don't, and may likely never be able to afford a computer. Best to reserve your input until you've reformed it within the social and material context of the situation. IE, we've got a clean slate here
BTW, what happens in 5 years, when everyone has upgraded? It's unlikely these schools will suddenly have license money
However, there is one factor in your favor: it's unlikely the teachers at these schools will know how to handle Linux any better than the kids, should RedHat get deployed, so I'm not entirely sure that OS software is a practical solution. Of course, if RedHat provides on-site admins and such, then, problem solved. And finally, as a parting shot, don't forget, if you're a truely tech-helpless student, KDE offers a very very very similar experience to Windows
All I know is that the most important institutions in our world, ie schools, general hospitals (exluding specialty wings, wards, etc), etc are the ones most often strapped for cash and lagged behind current technology, due to price. Socialist values are on the decline, so why the hell should we pour less money into taxes, and then turn around and demand those institutions run what (in many cases) only the private sector can afford?
Re:Not good for the children... (Score:2)
Re:Not good for the children... (Score:3, Insightful)
It benefits the students in the long run if they know how to use a wider range of software. The software evolves constantly and being able to learn how to use new tools, regardless what is used at the work place, is most important.
Re:Not good for the children... (Score:2)
Sorry. (Score:2)
First, Redhat is just piggybacking on it. I do not thinking giving redhat a big boost this way is 'fair' to others, OR to Microsoft.
Second, Microsoft getting off the hook at all by simply donating some stuff does not address the issue.
We simply need to ensure that microsoft can't stay on the top by bullying people with their size. If they want to stay on top with good software, let them.
The idea of making a software company pay with (Score:4, Funny)
I'd be walking around with a paper bag over my face even if I was only remotely affiliated the the legal team persuing the settlement in this deal.
I wonder if I could convince my bank to accept in-lieu of hard cash this handy little program:
void main()
{
while(1)
printf("Look mom! A program!\n");
}
Yes yes.. I know this doesn't do much, but you will concede the loop closely models the average behavior of some MS software that comes to mind... like MS Outlook; in particular: it doesn't do anything particularly useful and uses up insane processor resources... also, I will counter argue that since you have the source, you can take some time to make it useful.
Re:The idea of making a software company pay with (Score:2)
Actually, their top lawyer has just stepped down [bbc.co.uk].
Uh huh. (Score:2)
I'm not saying that M$ came up with a good settlement offer - and we sure as hell know they aren't going to do more than laugh at the RH offer.
That being said - cool idea...
Red Hat monopoly? (Score:2, Interesting)
When Elephants Battle The Grass Gets Trampled (Score:4, Insightful)
First of all about computers and software in schools. Studies have shown that the benefits of computers in school range from minor to non-existent especially when compared to tried and proven practices like increasing class sizes, upping teachers pay and engaging students in extracurricular activiteis like field trips. Secondly, in situations where computers proved to be beneficial it took an average of 3 years for the teacher to successfully integrate computers into the curricullum. Considering that the average lifespan of PC hardware is 3 - 5 years, this makes any push for computers in school a decision that should be weighed heavily before being taken.
As for having the students use Linux instead of Windows, I can't see how this is a good idea in either case. On the one hand, you have poor schools that are faced with having to find cash to pay for MSFT products after a certain time period expires and they have become used to using them and on the other you have places where middle school students struggle with concepts like "multiplication" (many teenage students I mentored did multiplications on their fingers) and "quadrilaterals" (and this was after repeated prepping by teachers in preparation for one of many standardized tests that students had to take) who are expected to learn how to use Linux. I hardly see that as Win-Win but instead Lose-Win where the winner is either Red Hat or Microsoft
Re:When Elephants Battle The Grass Gets Trampled (Score:2)
Have you any research (not teachers union funded) that indicates that teacher pay correlates with student achievement?
I think that the advantage of computers in schools is as a resource, not an element of the curriculum. IOW, allowing students to type papers, or use digital research materials (not the internet) is helpful. Plunking kids down in front of computers and expecting them to learn something is not.
-Peter
At the risk of starting a flame war.. (Score:2, Troll)
Is RedHat really a good idea? Sure, it's easy to install, but if history is any guide, it's pretty easy to own, too. Why not a more secure linux distribution, or even (ducking) FreeBSD?
Also, I don't think most parents would go for it, because their sprog won't be getting any computer (read: Microsoft) skills.
This would be good (Score:2, Insightful)
clever strategy (Score:2)
LINUX IS NOT HARDER TO USE THAN WINDOWS (Score:2)
I do tech support for an isp, I get windows calls all day, and in one 8 hour shift, I spend more time waiting for customers windows OS to reboot than I do in a whole year on my home system. Win2k/XP may be a bit better in this respect, but Linux is still far ahead of what windows offeres as a usable environment. Who's going to pay to update virus software on all these 200,000 windows boxes?
Great news, but then comes the reality (Score:2)
Sadly, of course Microsoft will not accept it, and the court will accept Microsoft's proposal. This kind of settlement would be just too adventurous for the justice system, I'm afraid.
And the public will not care a bit, but all children of America will praise Microsoft's generosity and kind-heartness. That's the saddest thing. TANJ.
I also don't quite believe Redhat's proposal. I doubt they would be delivering 1 million Redhat boxed packages with printed manuals and everything. Perhaps one for each school, or maybe just a CD set, or just "here's the URL."
This is one aspect which might make the proposal less appealing.
Why haven't we heard from Apple? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Why haven't we heard from Apple? (Score:3, Interesting)
You've never worked for a state government, have you? Here in Colorado, state agencies are bound by law to buy furniture through the Juniper Valley Corrections Facility. See, the prison put in the cheapest bid when the state was writing up contracts; as a result, state agencies may not buy any furniture from anyplace else, even though it can be had for as little as half as much, unless there are special circumstances (e.g., the furniture has to be built to exact specs that Juniper Valley can't handle).
Slave labor is here to stay.
-Legion
show em like it is (Score:3, Interesting)
Have a mix of them in the library for internet use and accessing the library catalog(often via web-interface these days). Show them that it doesn't really matter so long as standards are adhered to.
Seriously I doubt that any kid would have a problem sitting down at a KDE desktop for the first time. They'll just click on things till it breaks or works. And lets face it kids will often use the one which looks the coolest. Even a default KDE desktop looks pretty sweet (just change win-deco to laptop).
And after the license free period is over I imagine all the windows boxes will dissappear. Either that or MS will chase em down and eat them alive.
Forcing RH almost as bad as forcing MSFT. (Score:5, Insightful)
Also, it would be a good penalty to have Microsoft pay for a UNIX/Mac training course that's offered free to MSCE's that want it. In other words, you paid to become an MSCE before Microsoft's actions were brought to light, and now you have a free way to upgrade your skills to other tech and round out your knowledge and maybe stop pushing MS kit because it's all you know.
Another penalty would be free Windows 3.11 for any machine that can run it. These machines are out there, and often they are junk only because of software licensing. They ALL had DOS because of Microsoft's illegal licensing (pay for DOS whether you want it or not), so it's not like Microsoft didn't already get a cut of the cost of these machines originally. Apple has offered System 7.5.5 for free for years, and that is much higher functionality than Windows 3.11. That's why there are so many old Macs still doing functional work, and even being sold around on eBay to do functional work. The equivalent PC's (late 486's and early Pentiums) are going to the dump, or sitting in the basements of office buildings. Microsoft recently hassled a charity for collecting these and putting Windows 3.11 on them for kids. That's not right. If their software weren't so much more fragile than the hardware, these machines would still be functional (in other words, you'd turn them on and they'd be as good as the day they first went into service).
800,000 keyboards (Score:4, Interesting)
Second, if the point is to introduce the students to the principles of computer science, then Linux is perfectly adequate to the task. We aren't out to create a generation of Word-using stenographers, we are out to expand the minds of the students.
Third, there is no reason for any school to keep Linux on their machines if they choose not to. They can install any OS they like. True, they may have to pay for it. The cost-free option remains theirs, but they can go and install BeOS if they choose.
Fourth, the benefit of this proposal is not that Microsoft gets punnished for their evil deeds. It is not that they get their monopolistic plans thwarted. It is not that Red Hat gets to capture the hearts and minds of the students. The real benefit is that 800,000 more kids get to sit in front of 800,000 more monitors and tap away on 800,000 more keyboards than the original proposal. Five times as many kids get access to five times as many computers, running a capable, highly reliable, highly efficient operating system that can be utilized at no extra cost, or replaced with the OS of their choice (should they decide to do so) for far less than the cost of acquiring the equivilent systems themselves.
What a pity it won't happen!
Nothing in return? (Score:2)
Re:Go Redhat! (Score:2)
MS and Bill Gates, despite their business practices, are still fairly active in the charity community, however, so I don't think you can paint this one black and white.
All I know, is that, if I were a teacher in a poor school, I'd be livid that it takes a mammoth corperation to engage in anti-competative business practices, in order to receive new equipment. I guess we really have forgotten what the government and taxes are for
I really don't think anyone needs to be sold a 'nice' image of Microsoft. Microsoft is successful because their software is the best at helping the computer illiterate at actually accomplishing some tasks (and/or making them think it is), in the same way that Titanic and Ammargeddon were successful because those movies are good at helping the culturally illiterate sit through a movie.
If you don't know what questions to ask, you'll probably be satisfied with whatever answer is thrown at you. Anything more, that might cause you to re-evaluate your own motives and tasks you wish to accomplish (or culture and values with respect to movies) will drive away people en masse.
Re:Go Redhat! (Score:2, Informative)
This proposal put forward by one of the Plaintiff 's Lawyers, NOT Microsoft as so many people here seem to think it was.
Here are relevant quotes from the Wired Article:
Michael Hausfeld, representing a group of private plaintiffs in Washington, D.C., said he thought of the unorthodox settlement idea about nine months ago after realizing that each of the 65 million computer buyers eligible to gain from a $1 billion settlement would receive little more than $10.
Hausfeld and other lawyers consulted with academics and other education experts, then worked with Microsoft to hammer out final terms of the deal, he said.
So again, this "deal" was proposed by the Plaintiff's Lawyers, not Microsoft, and it pertains to the Private Class Action Lawsuits, NOT The DoJ Anti-Trust Trial.
Re:Thank You (Score:2)
Re:That seems a bit strange. (Score:2, Insightful)
Perhaps those children who grow up to be scientists or researchers will start submitting journal papers in Word format instead of TeX? For what it's worth, I wrote a book, and didn't touch Word once. (Admittedly disingenuous on my part, as most of the publishing industry *does* expect authors to use Word. vim + DocBook worked for me, though.)