Ximian Partners w/HP; Ximinian Default HP-UX Stations 111
vukicevic writes "Hewlett-Packard and Ximian have partnered to make Ximian GNOME the default desktop on all HP-UX workstations later this year. HP will also be offering Ximian GNOME on its Linux workstations. The press release has more information."
Re:Ximian = Helix (Score:1)
--
Re:Who is left? (Score:1)
The circle of life.. (Score:2)
Step 2 (or 1, if it's a non-Linux Unix company): Company announces its partnership with the Gnome Foundation and that it will be installing Gnome as its default desktop.
Step 3: Company announces its partnership with Helix Code and that it will be installing Helix Gnome as its default desktop.
Step 4: Company announces its partnership with Eazel and that it will be installing the Nautilus desktop as its default desktop.
Whatever the merits of some incarnation of Gnome over the alternatives, clearly there's no technical reason for, say, Dell to announce that they're switching from Gnome to Eazel Gnome. (Or was it Helix Gnome to Eazel Gnome?) I would assume that this is partly just companies with piles of VC money bringing a wheelbarrow of it to computer makers and asking for endorsement.
But I guess what we're also seeing is the emerging fight as to who will collect the tolls on the Linux desktop. Kind of like the fight between MS and computer makers as to what will appear on the Windows desktop, the question is whose desktop configuration will ship and whose revenue scheme will be supported-- Red Hat's subscription service for updates, Helix Code's ticketing commissions and subscription service for updates or Eazel's disk space and, ummm, subscription service for updates.
Bye bye Windows. We all knew it'd happen. (Score:1)
We all knew this was going to happen eventually. Microsoft put up their "Linux Myths" page and released the so-called "Halloween Documents". That was the first sign...the rapid growth of the KDE and GNOME (especially Helix (now Ximian)) is another factor. Combine this with the stability of GNU/Linux and other systems compared to Windows 2000, and there you have it - death to Windows. Windows 2000 is Microsoft's best offer. Let's look at it logically:
All Windows 2000 users are familiar with the "Blue Screen of Death". Poor reliability is one of the major drawbacks of Windows 2000. Some of the current problems will be fixed in Windows Whistler, but "code bloat" is almost certain to introduce many more reliability problems.In the performace arena, there is no comparison...Windows 2000 is adequate for routine desktop apps, but it is unable to handle heavy network loads. A few organizations try to make it work as an Internet server. For instance, barnesandnoble.com uses Windows 2000, as can be verifyed by the error messages that their webserver produces, such as this recent example: Error Message:
The software development world in particular is becoming more and more open source. In the future, most development tools will be free and open source - already the free software world has grabbed a large portion of the developer mindshare. With Ximian, this will soon include an even larger portion of user mindshare. So let's see how well Windows 2000 does in regards to free software...Oh, wait. The amount of free Windows software is much less than what is available for Unix. Many Windows applications are provided as "shareware", without source code, so the programs cannot be customized, debugged, improved, or extended by the user.Ok then, let's move on to support. Although support is available for Windows 2000, you should be prepared to spend as long as an hour on hold, with no guarantee that your problem will be resolved. Because of the closed source nature of Windows 2000, there is no informal, free support available, and bugs are fixed on Microsoft's schedule, not your's. Since Windows 2000 is not updated frequently (besides an SP before it was released), you may wait years for bugs to be fixed. (Or alternatively just shell out another $600 for Windows Whistler).
That brings us to price. The server edition of Windows 2000 costs nearly $650. Even basic applications cost extra. Users often spend many thousands of dollars for programs that are included for free with Linux or FreeBSD. Documentation is expensive, and very little on-line documentation is provided. A license is required for every computer, which means delays and administrative overhead.I think that says it all, really. Sorry to all you Microsoft fans - but try going on fact - like the facts stated above, rather than FUD, like the FUD contained on Microsoft's web site.
Re:Patches (Score:2)
versions of IRIX talking to various versions of HP-UX, espeacially when NFS is involved. "What do you mean patch level X is incompatible with patch level X+1?" Then its real fun!
Re:Sick of these puss releases... (Score:1)
Re:Who is left? (Score:2)
Re:If only they could do something about (Score:1)
I've always had good luck with -Ae on HP-UX, although after spending a long time trying I realized that gcc will never be compiled on my HP-UX 10.20 box. I think we don't have the full HP-UX development setup; we're definitely not using HP's cc for our real product development.
Now if only Netscape for HP-UX was stable; at least now HP-UX will probably come with one or more functional Gnome web browsers.
Of course, I'm moving to developing on Solaris instead pretty soon - although I don't think we have Gnome installed by default. Whether I install my own local copy depends on how much disk space I'll have...
Re:good thing? (Score:1)
Meanwhile CDE, while not bad, (I actually like CDE under Solaris) certainly doesn't have a large number of people rushing to write apps for it. I think it's all part of the evolution of Open Source merging with the old school Unix stuff.
Re:If only they could do something about (Score:1)
Re:The circle of life.. (Score:1)
Exactly. And Gnome is the default desktop for Red Hat.
That's precisely my point - the various Gnome factions are jockeying to see whose configuration will be installed by whom. That's why Slashdot has had all these stories recently about how, say, Sun and Dell, which had already committed to other incarnations of Gnome, have now announced their plans to ship Eazel. Like they weren't doing that already. The question is whose version of Gnome.
By the way, Eazel PR does push the idea of Gnome + Nautilus as the "Eazel desktop" or the "Eazel environment".
Re:That would be AIX. Gnome sucks in 8bit, though. (Score:1)
However when I run it under Gnome + IceWM, it looks just about OK (even with Modern skin)! I can't imagine why this is, but I won't complain if all I can have is this Ultra 1 workstation I use at the university... [1] see bugzilla [mozilla.org], please vote for this one!
Re:Ximian = Helix (Score:2)
Re:Patches (Score:2)
swinstall: no DEPOT found in hpsystem:/temp/XSWGR1100_11.00.depot
#fireaxe -x hit_really_hard=true -x roar_with_frustration=true feel_remorse=false -s hpsystem
SoupIsGood Food
Re:good thing? (Score:1)
Well if you were stuck with CDE... (Score:1)
Re:Who is left? (Score:2)
You can also find KDE 2.0.1 for AIX, SGI, HP-UX, Solaris, S/390, SCO, *BSD, and ofcourse - all Linux packages...
Donno about Gnome. I'm not following it.
Re:Good Looking but does it lose stability? (Score:1)
HPUX (Score:1)
A.
Re:This is deeply depressing (Score:1)
HP had a much better sense of style than M$, while the
3D effects of Motif may look a bit too cutesy, the overall
look and feel of VUE/CDE is IMHO much better than Gnome.
Re:Support issues. (Score:1)
Lilo and GRUB are not just bootloaders (like nuni or the DOS boot sector), they are also boot selectors, and people want more from them than just loading one OS all the time.
Re:This is deeply depressing (Score:1)
So, um... Install a different theme from the default.
Hey, look [themes.org]! CDE themes for sawmill, you silly monkey.
Why be different just for the sake of being different? I think that today's desktop is the result of an evolutionary process. The two main results are the Windows UI, and the Mac UI. GNOME and KDE are free to crib from both, and do (well, I can't speak for KDE. I haven't used it in two years).
--
A host is a host from coast to coast...
Great News (Score:2)
Re:Support issues. (Score:2)
Sick of these press releases... (Score:2)
I an tired of these press releases. Every closed source company now thinks it is great to announce a "partnership" with some Open Source company. WHY?!
Don't they realized that the code base is Open Source/Free Software. They can just download the code and then install it as default under HP UX. Why do they feel the need to create a press release and then spam everyone with this information.
The OSS companies like Eazel and HelixCode^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^HXimian think it is great because it increases their "value" I guess.
This does not qualify as "news for nerds". Maybe news for marketing droids.
</rant>
I have one thng to say ... (Score:1)
Re:Good Looking but does it lose stability? (Score:1)
Thanks, I'll give that a try. That sounds like it could be my problem, since I've never used menudrake, just the KDE and Gnome menu editors.
Re:Who is left? (Score:1)
Re:Sick of these press releases... (Score:2)
I disagree - too often a technically superior system has died because there wasn't the right marketing behind it - take OS/2 for example. Here we see that GNOME is not in danger of suffering from that.
Amen brother! (Score:2)
One fine day, you will be able to apt-get or rpm -Fvh an HP-UX system...
Until then, there is always Solaris (what is their thing with pkzip anyway?).
Re:Ximian = Helix (Score:2)
There was an article [slashdot.org] on January 10 about the name change.
Re:Good Looking but does it lose stability? (Score:1)
In my admittedly limited experience with Helix/Ximian Gnome, it has been more stable and more configurable than KDE/KDE2. That's not a flame, just my own personal experience. I can't compare it to "vanilla" Gnome, though - when I tried Gnome, I went directly with Helixcode.
Speaking of stability, has anyone seen this situation: you're using Mandrake 6.1 through 7.2, you install packages or edit menus in either KDE or Gnome (using kpackage as the front-end in both cases) and when the package has been installed, all of the sudden your customized system menu has been replaced by the default Mandrake menu. This doesn't happen all the time, but just often enough that I have to keep backups of my menu setup. Anyone else see this?
Re:Support issues. (Score:2)
All 5 of them you mean?
Re:good thing? (Score:5)
For one, the guys at Ximian have now replaced a highly visible proprietary piece of software with an open one. Secondly, the direction of GNOME is controlled by the GNOME Foundation, a group comprised of Sun, IBM, HP, Red Hat, VA Linux, Ximian, and many others. This makes it nearly impossible for one or even two corporations to try and hijack GNOME. Furthermore, the software you use will never be completely free of large corporations, Sun, IBM, HP, AT&T, Compaq, and Nortel Networks are just a few of the companies that contribute numerous resources to open source projects.
You make it sound like Mozilla was successful and then Netscape stepped in and messed it all up. The truth is it was messed up from the start because Netscape started it off that way. In this case GNOME is already a successful project and it would take a serious effort by more than just one corporation to derail their momentum.
Re:The circle of life.. (Score:1)
Re:News for Dorks and Stuff You'll Never See... (Score:2)
Another firm files for class action against VA Lin
Wouldn't it be easier to post a list of law firms that haven't filed a CA against LNUX? :) Slashdot did post a story about the first one, but since then there have been at least a dozen "me too" filings. Yahoo! stock message boards are a better way to keep track of it for those who care.
Re:Who is left? (Score:1)
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Re:Who is left? (Score:1)
Re:Patches (Score:1)
Re:Patches (Score:1)
Re:good thing? (Score:1)
Weren't both CDE and Motif controlled by a "foundation"? And, well you know...
Re:HP and Unix (Score:2)
I thought the training staff there was pretty bright too. Far more involved with the product then I saw with the US trainers (Dallas and Minneapolis).
Re:Ximian = Helix (Score:1)
Just curious (Score:1)
Re:Ximian = Helix (Score:2)
Yea, just showing of my god-like coding skills
When is Microsoft going Gnome? (Score:1)
Re:That would be AIX. Gnome sucks in 8bit, though. (Score:1)
All Suns support 24-bit color these days. Sun Ultra5 workstations start at $2000 and you do get 24-bit graphics, limited with 4MB of video memory though. For another $300 they'll toss in an 8MB raptor GFX card which is not that bad (still a bit expensive for only 8MB card ..)
YES! (Score:1)
Re:Linux is the winner (Score:2)
CDE (Score:1)
Re:Support issues. (Score:2)
The flood continues... (Score:1)
Is this really a case of the dominant Neanderthal being usurped by the more lean and mean Sapiens?
As a pure guess, the media reports at least two associations which companies are making with a linux community for every one which involves Microsoft.
$HP->kharma++;
$MS->Kharma-- unless $MS->karma
a polish GNOME distribution? (Score:1)
Re:good thing? (Score:2)
Re:Good Looking but does it lose stability? (Score:2)
Ximinian? (Score:1)
Re:good thing? (Score:1)
What OS are you using? Because I know of only a few that are "free of large corporations".
As for Mozilla, you imply that because it was associated with a corporation it was screwed up. Well if Netscape didn't make the choices they did, it wouldn't exist at all! It wasn't like it was a healthy project that got "corrupted".
Re:Just curious (Score:1)
For the record, though, I do belive the combination of a monkey and a gnome would not be far off
Re:good thing? (Score:1)
How large corporations kill good projects...
Mozilla was only recently opensourced, and most of the developers are still netscape employees
If anything the Open sourcing of mozilla has brought more bloat.
The issues with mozilla re much larger, but opensourcing it doesn't seem to have solved most of them anywayz, besides being good PR.
unfortunately the truth though, i would have loved to see netscape flourish
Re:HP to Ximian... (Score:3)
This is one of the reasonings for Free Software in full effect: hardware companies have an interest in the availability of software to their platform.
As a side note, I wouldn't be surprised if they timed their release with GNOME 1.4's.
Re:good thing? (Score:1)
I use HP-UX for one web-based application (the vendor does not yet support Linux). Powerful stuff, but in many ways an amazing piece of crap. Now at least the default UI will be better.
Re:When is Microsoft going Gnome? (Score:1)
Re:HP and Unix (Score:2)
I had a colleague at Ford (in Germany) who once said: "They should not let amateurs like HP make their own UNIX" (he had to switch from DEC Unix to HP-UX because the HP workstations where so much cheaper).
I for one, was always happy with HP since their workstation delivered good UNIX performance for just a little more than a PC.
This was till I started working for them. What a joke! I have never seen such a poor service. They probably treat their big customers (like FORD) better than they treat their own employees but I have never seen such a bunch of incompetent people. I left HP (and the country) thinking, I never want to work again for such a bunch of amateurs (it was in France).
On an unrelated note, what you say about Elm does not surprise me... Remember that the STL were made by HP labs in Paolo Alto and that for years C front (their C++ compiler) was not able to handle the STL. Only a few years ago, they switched to aCC and were able to use their own code.
Juju
Great, just great. (Score:1)
Really though, I think this is a good thing, I just don't want to go mess with the configuration on my servers again.
Been there, done that? (Score:1)
The big difference here, though, is that now it will be *supported*. Much like you could download Samba and install it on an HPUX box, we had no support options for the product until HP shipped CIFS/9000 (which is samba 2.06).
Re:The circle of life.. (Score:2)
Nautilus is not its own desktop, it's the file manager for GNOME (Ximian or otherwise) 1.4 and up. It is not its own desktop, nor does 'Eazel GNOME' exist.
"If ignorance is bliss, may I never be happy.
Re:Support issues. (Score:1)
But personally I'd prefer KDE to GNOME, but, oh well.
Re:Patches (Score:1)
Re:Good Looking but does it lose stability? (Score:2)
My experience: On Mandrake 7 KDE is noticeably more stable in default configuration (Gnome was running with E for a memory manager, which is certainly at least part of the reason.) On Slackware 7.1, with Gnome running with Sawfish, it seems about equally stable to KDE. Changing window manager to WindowMaker helps stability a bit and gives it the edge, though not by much.
That said, both have stability problems. Not on the scale of Win 9x by any means, but not much better than NT... the only real advantage stability wise is that problems can only dump you back to the command line, not actually reboot the machine. Which I think is a pretty big advantage really, but I know a lot of people that disagree. Don't ask me why.
Disclaimer: These experiences are with earlier version of both Gnome and KDE. Hopefully both have gotten better, but I work through a modem at home and can't just reflexively update every time a program revs - particularly extremely large programs like these.
Sorry, never happened to me. Just a wild guess, but are you running X as root?
One thing that turns me off about helix/ximian is the lack of packages in standard tar.gz formats - what's up with that? Seems very unprofessional of them.
Re:Sick of these press releases... (Score:1)
To CDE??? I would strongly argue that it is. AFAICS CDE was an attempt at a standard-ish UI, not a fully-fledged component model, and I don't think it was very good at even that.
same desktop across all unix's (Score:1)
Make one desktop that is by default the same no matter what flavor your working with. Make gui front-end administration tools the same, with a back-end customized to the unix.
ie, you use the click the same button in the same gui on linux as you do solaris to change the clock, or to change a network setting.
Unix admin's don't have to memorize where slackware puts a config file compared to hp-ux.
Re:SGI. (Score:2)
AIX has GNOME and KDE2. (Score:2)
You forgot IBM's AIX, although I don't see that on a desktop or using X in any way. Still, they're a UNIX vendor.
Two things. First, AIX comes with CDE as standard running on X, so it does get used on a desktop (mine for example) by virtue of remote access through an X server.
Secondly, IBM has already announced that the Linux Toolkit for AIX (versions 4.3.3+ and 5L) and this contains both GNOME and KDE2 ports, so for those of us who make extensive use of AIX life just got a lot easier.
Cheers,
Toby Haynes
Re:Who is left? (Score:1)
overrun by monkeys!! (Score:1)
Re:good thing? (Score:2)
Weren't both CDE and Motif controlled by a "foundation"? And, well you know...
And the source to CDE and Motif is available where? Now do you see the difference? Additionally, the GNOME Foundation does not do the coding, nor implement the current ideas. It is a talking shop for where to go next and to raise the visibility (and funding) of GNOME. It does not dictate the GNOME development decisions
Cheers,
Toby Haynes
This is deeply depressing (Score:2)
It was cool when HP had VUE. There was a feeling of integration, of a finished product, somewhat like Macintosh. I guess every Unix workstation will be a wannabe PC. More expensive than Wintel and lacking the latest dancing puppydog, they'll watch their market share erode. They don't have the vision or boldness to promote a truly Unixy desktop.
A desktop can be a kind of battle flag, as Mac users know. The Unix vendors are discarding the opportunity to define themselves visually in opposition to M$.
But the workstation market is probably doomed anyway. It will be crushed between Linux and W2k.
Patches (Score:4)
If you have used or supported HP-UX you will understand the above and find it funny. To those of you who don't know HP-UX the above is *very* ontopic
Who is left? (Score:2)
Now we have HP using it as the default for both their linux stations soon, and their HP UX machines.
Who all does that leave in the Unix world? SCO, I think is all thats left, and didnt they go under or something?
Granted, OSX is sorta unix, and does use it, but with their exception, now you can go from bsd->unix->linux and always have the same desktop??
Did I miss someone?
Cause if not, WOW.
Re:YES! (Score:1)
Re:overrun by monkeys!! (Score:1)
That has got to be... (Score:4)
- A.P.
--
* CmdrTaco is an idiot.
Re:Ximian = Helix (Score:2)
Yay for taking metaphors too far...
Re:YES! (Score:1)
PH-UX.
I get paid a nickel [sendmoreinfo.com] for every email I read!
good thing? (Score:3)
I for one prefer that the software I use is free of large corporations. That's why my X is now ximian free!
If you want a perfect case study of how large corporations screw up perfectly good open source projects, why don't you take a look at Mozilla?
ben.
That would be AIX. Gnome sucks in 8bit, though. (Score:2)
Did UnixWare have CDE?
Most of the commercial UNIX people charge big bucks for anything better than 8bit graphics.
In IBM's case, they just ship you a Matrox PCI card for which they overcharge you by about a billion percent.
I do hope that CDE gets open-sourced soon. I kinda like dtksh.
Re:Great News (Score:1)
Re:When is Microsoft going Gnome? (Score:1)
Acronym close call (Score:2)
PH-UX.
I get paid a nickel [sendmoreinfo.com] for every email I read!
Re:Nope (Score:2)
Who is using GNOME?
o Generally shipped with all Linux & BSD distributions
o Will be the default Solaris and HP-UX GUI
o GNOME Foundation includes Sun, IBM, HP, Compaq, Helix Code, Eazel, RedHat, VA Linux, and others
Re:If only they could do something about (Score:1)
Re:Great News (Score:1)
I think that the Wistler issues (pirate protection, mandatory online registration) will definitely slow the adoption of wistler and make companies and individuals alike start looking at the alternatives. A great, common desktop across most major unixes and linux, and with the new version of MacOSX, well.. Microsoft's days are numbered. I predict Unix/Linux/MacOSX will have atleast 40% of the desktop market by the end of 2003.
--Doug
Re:Who is left? (Score:1)
SGI. (Score:2)
Re:Great News (Score:1)
Re:Good Looking but does it lose stability? (Score:1)
Nope, no X as root, although I su to run kpackage and actually install stuff. I'm pretty sure it's this packaging front end that's causing the problem, but it doesn't do it often enough that I've taken the time to track it down. Or it could be the result of a standard script that Mandrake runs on package installs?
Re:SGI. (Score:1)
than it was 3 years ago. It still is a very
spiffy window manager though. What I'd like to
see happen instead of 4Dwm's death is SGI freeing
it so we can use it with OpenMotif or Lesstif.
HP and Unix (Score:3)
One little note is that Elm was originally created by an HP engineer, although it was a long time until it made it's way into HP/UX.
Ximian = Helix (Score:2)
Re:Linux is the winner (Score:2)
PS> Of course, this message is wasted anyway. Its not like you can read it...